Future of the hobby

[Filthysanches]

Soon 3d printers will be high Enough resolution to sustain likely a more robust community of model makers, right now the filament resolution doesn't scale and other technologies are out of reach for most. 

[Richard Bartrop]

Even if you can't afford the fancier printers, there are services like Shapeways that will do it for you. The technology isn't ready to replace injection moulding, but when it comes to resin, especially detail parts, it's getting close, if it isn't there already.

[my66s55]

7 hours ago, Filthysanches said:

Soon 3d printers will be high Enough resolution to sustain likely a more robust community of model makers, right now the filament resolution doesn't scale and other technologies are out of reach for most. 

 It's not the 3d printers that are lacking, as high resolution desktop units have been around a few years. It's the skills to use them and to create the cad files needed that is lacking. These are not filiment, but sla, dlp printers that use uv light to cure uv resin in layers as low as 10 microns and xy resolution below 50 microns. Here is an example of something I have used those skill to create and print. The printer I used cost me $620.00.

[Slotto]

amazing!

[Richard Bartrop]

Fortunately, the great thing about skills is that they can be learned.  Knowing how to use a computer is already an essential skill if you're a 2D artist.  I can't see the day being far off when the same holds true in the 3D realm.

[Ace-Garageguy]

49 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

Fortunately, the great thing about skills is that they can be learned.  Knowing how to use a computer is already an essential skill if you're a 2D artist.  I can't see the day being far off when the same holds true in the 3D realm.

I would also submit that learning these skills is considerably easier than mastering a multitude of physical tools, techniques, materials, and operations.

What IS required is mastering manipulation of onscreen symbols that tell the computer how to create representations of desired lines, volumes, and surface finishes.

I can back up the statement with the fact that I personally know several visual artists who can not draw a blade of grass, but can produce stunning computer-based images. Likewise, I know engineers who can't make anything in the physical world, and wouldn't know where to start, but they can produce beautiful (and absolutely accurate) 3D renderings of objects with CAD.

Harry P. was one of the old-school hands-on artists who was able to transition to working very effectively in the virtual world, and would most certainly have been able to design parts to be made via 3D printing (as well as his demonstrated ability physically scratch-building)...but being able to do both is rather rare in my experience.

If anything, 3D computer modeling and printing will OPEN doors within the hobby to people who can't do it the traditional way. It's a fantastic additional set of tools for those who can.

 

 

[Richard Bartrop]

12 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I would also submit that learning these skills is considerably easier than mastering a multitude of physical tools, techniques, materials, and operations.

What IS required is mastering manipulation of onscreen symbols that tell the computer how to create representations of desired lines, volumes, and surface finishes.

I can back up the statement with the fact that I personally know several visual artists who can not draw a blade of grass, but can produce stunning computer-based images. Likewise, I know engineers who can't make anything in the physical world, and wouldn't know where to start, but they can produce beautiful (and absolutely accurate) 3D renderings of objects with CAD.

Harry P. was one of the old-school hands-on artists who was able to transition to working very effectively in the virtual world, and would most certainly have been able to design parts to be made via 3D printing (as well as his demonstrated ability physically scratch-building)...but being able to do both is rather rare in my experience.

If anything, 3D computer modeling and printing will OPEN doors within the hobby to people who can't do it the traditional way. It's a fantastic additional set of tools for those who can.

 

 

And it still takes more skill that gluing a bunch of pre formed parts together.

In any case, the whole point of tools is to make things easier, and where the computer really shines is in making nice, precise geometric objects, and making lots of identical objects, things that humans tend not to be as good at.  personally, when I want to do something like sculpt a figure, I'd just as soon get some Milliput, and do it the old fashioned way.

In both 2D and 3D, being able to do this stuff without a computer definitely gives you an advantage when you do decide to tackle it.

And making it easier for people to model from scratch is surely a good thing, right?

[Filthysanches]

On 5/19/2018 at 7:30 AM, my66s55 said:

 It's not the 3d printers that are lacking, as high resolution desktop units have been around a few years. It's the skills to use them and to create the cad files needed that is lacking. These are not filiment, but sla, dlp printers that use uv light to cure uv resin in layers as low as 10 microns and xy resolution below 50 microns. Here is an example of something I have used those skill to create and print. The printer I used cost me $620.00.

Which printer do you have is this sls or dlp. The banding is much finer than most desktop printers ive seen. 

Dlp and sls printers are not exactly cheap. Also what is the support setup for something like this? How's the clean up? Are 1/24th scale undercuts any issue? How does it handle very fine holes? What software did you use to model? 

I'm looking to start, an there are so many extrusion based printers, I don't know where to start at this scale. I suspect dlp or sls is the only way to go currently at this scale. 

[Filthysanches]

On 5/16/2018 at 6:44 AM, gtx6970 said:

Dying ? 

Maybe not. But definitely on a downward trend. I can see it spiraling down even more , especially in the next 20 or 30 years. Look around fellas ,,,, We aint getting any younger folks.

Look around at any Model show/swap meet. Or even 1.1 car shows/swap meets for that matter. There  is definitely  more grey hears than there used to be. Not many young guns in the modeling world . Some of the 1/1 shows have actually created a class targeted specifically at the younger crowd. Mopar Nats calls it Young Guns And as far as I know it does quite well.

 

But, I dont care really. Even if every model kit manufacturer closed up shop today.  I have more than enough to keep me busy till I'm 6 ft under.

My family has said any builts will stay in the family and passed on . Any unbuilts will go away in one way or another.

As one of those squirly youths I think there is an issue of quality. I was born in 83, I grew up with the US trying and failing to make cheap Japanese like cars. 50s 60s and 70s...think about the iconic cars in those decades. There are less gearheads and subsequently less model makers, I think, due to a generation of kids who grew up with the aggressive built in obsolescence in manufacturing, and cheap and un inspired body style. No one looks back and thinks, "man if only they made cars like the Chevy Citation nowadays." no offense to any citation lovers. 

Good news is the generation after mine grew up with fast and the furious, transformers movies, and retro style muscle like the new mustang and Challenger etc. I imagine that will influence the next hobiests. It's just a matter of you old guys showing them they exist. Look at forums like prop replica forum, and other maker outlets, 3d printing, Japanese pop culture has atleast kept the concept of modeling pretty popular. So the ground is fertile just have to plant seeds

I think most kids don't know this exists. My kids do although they have no interest. 

But I'm with you it will be here after I'm tits up so I just have to challenge myself and keep things interesting. 

[Phirewriter]

I know that there are a lot of people on this board who reject Facebook but there's no shortage of model related groups. Many younger builders are hanging out there. I think we here tend to view the hobby based on what's going on within this group and a few other message boards that are populated by us old guys. If you look, there are groups dedicated to brand specific (AMT, Revell, etc...) builds. Subject based groups such as muscle cars, drag cars, imports, show rods just to name a few. There's even some dedicated to survivors and period restorations of vintage kits. Lots of cool stuff.

There's a whole other world out there if you're willing to look for it. IMHO the younger builders just don't want to hang around us old guys and have found new places to hang out in the cyber world. They just build different stuff than muscle cars, old American iron and hot rods. Even within my local club there are younger builders doing their own thing and we don't discourage them from building what they like (I've seen this happen in the past though) Beyond that I'd say most of our club members don't come to this or other boards for whatever reason and we shouldn't make any conclusions of the state of the hobby based on what is seen here.  With the internet I think there's lots of people who are content to order online and not go to shows or participate in local clubs. The net provides them with all the interaction they require.

The hobby is alive and well, just going down different paths. 

[martinfan5]

2 hours ago, Phirewriter said:

I know that there are a lot of people on this board who reject Facebook but there's no shortage of model related groups. Many younger builders are hanging out there. I think we here tend to view the hobby based on what's going on within this group and a few other message boards that are populated by us old guys. If you look, there are groups dedicated to brand specific (AMT, Revell, etc...) builds. Subject based groups such as muscle cars, drag cars, imports, show rods just to name a few. There's even some dedicated to survivors and period restorations of vintage kits. Lots of cool stuff.

There's a whole other world out there if you're willing to look for it. IMHO the younger builders just don't want to hang around us old guys and have found new places to hang out in the cyber world. They just build different stuff than muscle cars, old American iron and hot rods. Even within my local club there are younger builders doing their own thing and we don't discourage them from building what they like (I've seen this happen in the past though) Beyond that I'd say most of our club members don't come to this or other boards for whatever reason and we shouldn't make any conclusions of the state of the hobby based on what is seen here.  With the internet I think there's lots of people who are content to order online and not go to shows or participate in local clubs. The net provides them with all the interaction they require.

The hobby is alive and well, just going down different paths. 

This guy right here gets it.

[Bugatti Fan]

As a veteran model maker I have seen many changes over the years and many exciting new developments in the quality of kits, materialx and paints etc. On the downside, however there has gradually been a demise in hand skills amongst youngsters generally. I am an engineer by trade, brought up old school through the apprenticeship route, and find it hard to believe that there are people out there purporting to be engineers who have never physically made anything! Sorry but cannot see how any one can be an engineer without experience 'on the tools' so to speak. Having worked at a senior school just before retirement I was very disappointed to see the lack of practical skills most  kids have these days. It seemed difficult to them at aged 16/17 to put an axle through a piece of wood and attach some pre cut wheels on it! When I let school in 1960 at age 15 I had made a coffee table with all the proper joints etc. Just a sign of the times we live in I guess.

[my66s55]

9 hours ago, Filthysanches said:

Which printer do you have is this sls or dlp. The banding is much finer than most desktop printers ive seen. 

Dlp and sls printers are not exactly cheap. Also what is the support setup for something like this? How's the clean up? Are 1/24th scale undercuts any issue? How does it handle very fine holes? What software did you use to model? 

I'm looking to start, an there are so many extrusion based printers, I don't know where to start at this scale. I suspect dlp or sls is the only way to go currently at this scale. 

For printer details, go to this thread: http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/topic/128242-the-latest-in-desk-top-3d-printing-new-carb-prints-new-camera/?tab=comments#comment-1860607.  The carb had to be divided into the three parts on the real one. The top and bottom are printed upright an the middle is inverted. They are printed flat on the build plate, no supports are required. Clean up is a quick bath in 91% ipa and 4 minutes in the ultrasound cleaner. Assembling the carb can be a real challenge. I use Blender to create cad files. 

 

[mikemodeler]

7 hours ago, Phirewriter said:

I know that there are a lot of people on this board who reject Facebook but there's no shortage of model related groups. Many younger builders are hanging out there. I think we here tend to view the hobby based on what's going on within this group and a few other message boards that are populated by us old guys. If you look, there are groups dedicated to brand specific (AMT, Revell, etc...) builds. Subject based groups such as muscle cars, drag cars, imports, show rods just to name a few. There's even some dedicated to survivors and period restorations of vintage kits. Lots of cool stuff.

There's a whole other world out there if you're willing to look for it. IMHO the younger builders just don't want to hang around us old guys and have found new places to hang out in the cyber world. They just build different stuff than muscle cars, old American iron and hot rods. Even within my local club there are younger builders doing their own thing and we don't discourage them from building what they like (I've seen this happen in the past though) Beyond that I'd say most of our club members don't come to this or other boards for whatever reason and we shouldn't make any conclusions of the state of the hobby based on what is seen here.  With the internet I think there's lots of people who are content to order online and not go to shows or participate in local clubs. The net provides them with all the interaction they require.

The hobby is alive and well, just going down different paths. 

Yup, even though I fall into the "old guy" category, there are a bunch of young modelers out there who don't necessarily show up here or at model shows, for reasons of their own. I suspect it's because they might think they won't fit in with us old farts and we will be critical of their builds because the plug wires aren't in the correct firing order or they painted their carbs the wrong color. Whatever the reason, all one has to do is take their blinders off and look around, the youngins are out there building!

[Richard Bartrop]

2 minutes ago, mikemodeler said:

Yup, even though I fall into the "old guy" category, there are a bunch of young modelers out there who don't necessarily show up here or at model shows, for reasons of their own. I suspect it's because they might think they won't fit in with us old farts and we will be critical of their builds because the plug wires aren't in the correct firing order or they painted their carbs the wrong color. Whatever the reason, all one has to do is take their blinders off and look around, the youngins are out there building!

That so many of the "old guard" love to share their views on how much they hate everything the younger crowd does probably doesn't help either.

This has nothing to with skill level.  There are younger modelers on this group who have shown they are as interested in getting it  right, and there's no shortage of old fogeys who take a perverse pride in not being "river counters"

[Tom Geiger]

5 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

That so many of the "old guard" love to share their views on how much they hate everything the younger crowd does probably doesn't help either.

This has nothing to with skill level.  There are younger modelers on this group who have shown they are as interested in getting it  right, and there's no shortage of old fogeys who take a perverse pride in not being "river counters"

Bingo!  The same guys who moan that the younger crowd doesn't get involved will also moan when a manufacturer announces kits that would appear to the younger crowd! We are our own worse enemy.

TSSMCC / NNL East has partnered up to start and grow a few new shows.

Our efforts with the Philadelphia NNL  were an instant success!  True, it was at the Simeone Museum, but everyone knew that it was an "old guys show".

Our efforts with the Diversified Scalers wasn't as successful as we hoped.  Show attracted a group of young modelers that we normally don't see, which is a good thing. We extensively marketed it to our market to dismal results.  One of our members was at a South Jersey club meeting the week before and talked about the show at the meeting and was met with disparaging remarks that they weren't going to any "tuner show".   Well, it wasn't a tuner show. It had all the regular classes of any show. It had 20 vendor tables of vendors we are familiar with.  Our aging herd just didn't support the next generation.   And that's a sad accounting.

[Phirewriter]

36 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

That so many of the "old guard" love to share their views on how much they hate everything the younger crowd does probably doesn't help either.

I think that's an excellent point. Just look at some of the negative comments about show rods for example. While I've seen a few imports and the occasional lowrider posted here it's still seems like we're caught up in day's gone by. Hey I'm definitely one for nostalgia growing up in the late 60's and 70's but I don't want to be stuck there either. Just look at the recent pole someone posted about age here, not particularly shocked by the results.

Over the years I've seen fellow club members fail to get their kids more involved simply because the subject matter didn't suit dad. My dad built models, mostly classic and replica stock. He never said anything negative about my love of Tom Daniel's stuff. He bought me what I wanted to build and was happy to see me doing something. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Phirewriter

[Tom Geiger]

27 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

That so many of the "old guard" love to share their views on how much they hate everything the younger crowd does probably doesn't help either.

What the old guard fails to see is that when we were young and aspired to build models, we built models of what were then brand new cars!   The exact thing the youth of today are doing.  Your passion is formed by what you see, what is relevant to your life!

And nothing changes.  I've heard stories of car shows back when the 80 year old Brass Era guys made fun of younger guys showing 1950s cars!

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Tom Geiger

[Phirewriter]

Tom, I think that recent, unfortunate experience is indicative of what's going on as a whole. I stepped away from our local club for a number of years and at that time there was a prevailing negativity about certain subjects coming straight from our club president and other longtime members. That seems to have changed in recent years (new guys at the helm for one) and after starting to attend again noticed a decided different and positive attitude towards things. 

[Phirewriter]

13 minutes ago, Tom Geiger said:

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Phirewriter
Sorry needed to keep it on track, just agreed with Tom

[Ace-Garageguy]

10 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

...I am an engineer by trade, brought up old school through the apprenticeship route, and find it hard to believe that there are people out there purporting to be engineers who have never physically made anything! Sorry but cannot see how any one can be an engineer without experience 'on the tools' so to speak...

Boy, do I agree with that.

While not the product of an "apprenticeship route" over here, when I was at Tech, we HAD to go in the shop and make some things we'd designed on mills, lathes, etc. Having at least SOME hands-on familiarity with the capabilities of various machine tools and fabrication procedures was considered mandatory.

In the mid-90's I hired a Tech ME senior as an intern, and was appalled to learn that the "shop" hours were no longer required, and some of the fine old machine tools were sitting outside in the rain. Anyway, the kid in question was GLAD to have the experience he got working for me, actually MAKING things, and he taught me some computer skills in return (I'd had some programming in school, and an intro to using CNC, but CAD as we know it didn't exist yet).

BOTH the computer AND the hands-on skills need to COMPLEMENT EACH OTHER, to make the BEST engineers.

[Phirewriter]

My father was an engineer and probably was why he got into models and vintage car restorations in the late 50's he had a love of cars. He was definitely a hands on hobbyist. Although I didn't follow him into that field he instilled a lot of that type of thinking in me. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Phirewriter

[Ace-Garageguy]

I also fail to see why there's so much "us vs them" between younger and older modelers always being bandied about.

Form MY perspective, ANYTHING interesting is fair game as model fodder, and though I love old iron and hot-rods, some of my favorite long term projects involve "tuner" cars...like a RocketBunny-bodied Nissan S14 Silvia, and a hot-rod CR-Z.

One of the trickest real cars around here is a gen-one Z-car with a hot turbo'd Yotota JZ, putting down about 700 rear-wheel horsepower. And the engine out of my own gen-one MR2 is going in behind the seats of my Geo Metro convertible, with the space vacated in the  Mister Two slated to be filled by a Taurus SHO unit.

Fast cars is fast cars, as far as I'm concerned, whether flatheads from Michigan or 4-cams from Asia and Europe.

Why limit yourself to cars you remember from your youth?

[Filthysanches]

14 hours ago, my66s55 said:

For printer details, go to this thread: http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/topic/128242-the-latest-in-desk-top-3d-printing-new-carb-prints-new-camera/?tab=comments#comment-1860607.  The carb had to be divided into the three parts on the real one. The top and bottom are printed upright an the middle is inverted. They are printed flat on the build plate, no supports are required. Clean up is a quick bath in 91% ipa and 4 minutes in the ultrasound cleaner. Assembling the carb can be a real challenge. I use Blender to create cad files. 

 

Blender. I didn't expect that answer because I know blender and nothing is ever that easy for me so that's a nice surprise. 

[Filthysanches]

22 hours ago, Phirewriter said:

I know that there are a lot of people on this board who reject Facebook but there's no shortage of model related groups. Many younger builders are hanging out there. I think we here tend to view the hobby based on what's going on within this group and a few other message boards that are populated by us old guys. If you look, there are groups dedicated to brand specific (AMT, Revell, etc...) builds. Subject based groups such as muscle cars, drag cars, imports, show rods just to name a few. There's even some dedicated to survivors and period restorations of vintage kits. Lots of cool stuff.

There's a whole other world out there if you're willing to look for it. IMHO the younger builders just don't want to hang around us old guys and have found new places to hang out in the cyber world. They just build different stuff than muscle cars, old American iron and hot rods. Even within my local club there are younger builders doing their own thing and we don't discourage them from building what they like (I've seen this happen in the past though) Beyond that I'd say most of our club members don't come to this or other boards for whatever reason and we shouldn't make any conclusions of the state of the hobby based on what is seen here.  With the internet I think there's lots of people who are content to order online and not go to shows or participate in local clubs. The net provides them with all the interaction they require.

The hobby is alive and well, just going down different paths. 

I don't agree that the younger guys just don't have a want to discuss here. You guys don't type old, in my head your all my age, with a love of making cars. there is a legitimate lack of interest in hands on artistry as craftsmenship and what does exist has been directed down different paths. For instance, cos play prop replicas, and garage creature builds are huge now in a way that car models were in the past. So it's just changing with a cultural preference and a lack of exposure. With that said everytime I'm in hobby town or Michaels I never see guys above 40 looking for models next to me, and I live in silicon Valley which traditionally doesn't promote hobbies like this to the youth. So someone is doing something right.