Fixing the wide front of the Fujimi 917?

[robdebie]

On 9/24/2019 at 3:57 PM, afx said:

Some specs and information on the 917K

https://www.supercars.net/blog/1970→1971-porsche-917-kurzheck/

length	4140 mm / 163.0 in
width	1975 mm / 77.8 in
height	920 mm / 36.22 in

The 917 kit web page is my work, and I just found out about this thread. I'm going to start here, the basic dimensions. It's been a while since I studied the subject in-depth, so maybe my memory is a bit rusty.

I've gathered a lot of numbers for the length, width and height, and there are quite a few conflicting numbers. Here's my best understanding:

• the 1969 model had 12" wide rear wheels, and the rear body was 1880 mm wide
• the 1970 model had mostly 15" wide rear wheels, and the rear body was 1980 mm wide
• some 1970 and 1971 models had 17" wide rear wheels, and the rear body was 2080 mm wide

The 1975 mm number quoted above fits the size for a 917 with 15 inch rear wheels IMO.

If you look at period photos, you can nicely see the step-by-step widening of the rear bodywork by looking at the door sills (I like to call them sponsons). They started out as straight parts all the way to the rear wheel opening. Then the wider bodywork for 15" wheels was put on, that created a mismatch with the still straight sills - the engine cover had an overhang. This is the configuration that I'm building, see photo below. New sills were made, with a curvature at the rear, so they would match again. But by then the again-wider bodywork for 17" rear wheels was introduced, and again there was a mismatch. New sills were made again to match that.

The front half of the car stayed basically the same, except for the long tail models.

The Heller model conforms to most dimensions I found and analysed. It clearly has the rear body for the 17" wheels, the widest one. I wanted a 15" rear wheel car, so I took out 2 mm on each side. In the photo below I had only done one side. The modification is not very noticable, I will admit ?

Rob

[Ace-Garageguy]

45 minutes ago, Bainford said:

I'd be interested in seeing this if/when it happens.

OK. I came home for an early lunch, got both kits out, did some measuring, and scaled a few things from the last drawing Matt posted.

Based on the 2300 mm wheelbase shown in Matt's last drawing, the base of the windshield scales out to be 976.5 mm at the widest point.

The Fujimi kit measures 46.36 mm. Multiplied by 24, the full-scale dimension would be 1112.64.

The Heller kit measures 41.28 mm at the same point. Multiplied by 24, the full-scale dimension would be 990.72...clearly much closer to scale-correct.

I'll post photos shortly.   Photos below.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Ace-Garageguy

[robdebie]

4 hours ago, afx said:

Brian,  I couldn't find the photos that compare the Fujimi and Heller bodies, can you post the photos or direct me where they are in the thread?

I checked, and the comparison photos in both threads have disappeared. I did not save them either ?

Rob

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 minute ago, robdebie said:

I checked, and the comparison photos in both threads have disappeared. I did not save them either ?

No worries. Heller on the left in white, Fujimi on the right in blue.

[robdebie]

9 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

OK. I came home for an early lunch, got both kits out, did some measuring, and scaled a few things from the last drawing Matt posted.

Based on the 2300 mm wheelbase shown in Matt's last drawing, the base of the windshield scales out to be 976.5 mm at the widest point.

The Fujimi kit measures 46.36 mm. Multiplied by 24, the full-scale dimension would be 1112.64.

The Heller kit measures 41.28 mm at the same point. Multiplied by 24, the full-scale dimension would be 990.72...clearly much closer to scale-correct.

I'll post photos shortly.

I can add ~40.3 mm for the MFH 1970 917 Langheck, making 967 mm in real life.

Rob

[Ace-Garageguy]

So...the Heller kit is clearly closer to being scale-correct in width, anyway, than the Fujimi version. I wish I'd known this several years back when I bought multiples of the Fujimi to do several important cars, assuming that, based on reputation, the kits would be accurate. I only have one of the Hellers, acquired recently, and it's the one that brought the scaling problem with the Fujimis to my attention.

The Fujimi kit is a very fine kit anyway, and would make an outstanding model...as long as you don't park it too close to a Heller, or particularly care if models actually look like what they represent.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Ace-Garageguy

[robdebie]

3 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

No worries. Heller on the left in white, Fujimi on the right in blue.

Many thanks! I see a huge size difference, and to me it disfigures the shape to such a degree that I don't want to build the Fujimi model.

I want to add an observation. In my experience most modelers focus on the details, and don't have an eye for the overall shape. I've tested this theory many times, and roughly there's a 80:20 split between detail-viewers and shape-viewers. Personally I'm still learning to view shapes, and often I can see that something is wrong, but not what's wrong. But I'm slowly developing techniques to help with the shape analysis.

One very relevant example is the Profil 24 1969 Porsche 917. I saw something was wrong with the rear side, and after a lot of analysis I found out that the rear wheel opening was 4 mm too far forward. Plus the tail needed to be rotated down. Below you can see a before and after. Whenever I see this model built up without modifications, it looks like it was rear-ended, it really looks weird.

Rob

[robdebie]

5 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

So...the Heller kit is clearly closer to being scale-correct in width, anyway, than the Fujimi version. I wish I'd known this several years back when I bought multiples of the Fujimi to do several important cars, assuming that, based on reputation, the kits would be accurate. I only have one of the Hellers, acquired recently, and it's the one that brought the scaling problem with the Fujimis to my attention.

The Fujimi kit is a very fine kit anyway, and would make an outstanding model...as long as you don't park it too close to a Heller, or particularly care if models actually look like what they represent.

Of course MFH is the best choice for a 917, but they are very expensive and I would even call them intimidating ?

The Heller kit is a bit of a bitch to build. Warped parts were already reported, and here's what mine looked like on the runners. I decided to glue it solidly to the cockpit section.

As shown earlier, I narrowed the rear bodywork and added 'straight' sills. I also added 1 mm between the sills and the upper body, to increase the height a bit. I'm now working on the front side.

I'm even trying to use the frame parts. I added the bulkhead part in white.

One last warning is that the engine is either too tall, or needs to drop down about a millimeter, otherwise the rear body will not fit. The likely cause for the problem is the 'cross' in the bottom side of the frame, something that does not exist on the real car.

Rob

 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 minute ago, robdebie said:

Of course MFH is the best choice for a 917, but they are very expensive...

The Heller kit is a bit of a bitch to build. Warped parts were already reported...

...One last warning is that the engine is either too tall, or needs to drop down about a millimeter, otherwise the rear body will not fit. The likely cause for the problem is the 'cross' in the bottom side of the frame, something that does not exist on the real car.

I really appreciate your input, and your work looks great.

I'm glad this came up before I put a lot of time into a Fujimi, only to be disappointed when I really looked at the thing.

Hmmmm...now, to decide what to do with the Fujimis, and whether I really want to replace all of 'em, or maybe narrow them a little and build weathered after-the-race versions where the discrepancies in proportions wouldn't be quite so obvious...with a Heller as a clean, more definitive example of the design.

[afx]

There is also the Fisher 917LH to consider.  I have one in the stash and will check some dimensions when I get a chance.  I snatched these photos from the interweb.

Edited September 25, 2019 by afx

[afx]

38 minutes ago, robdebie said:

 

 

Nice work Rob, would be interested in seeing more of your project and thank you for adding to the conversation

[robdebie]

19 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I really appreciate your input, and your work looks great.

I'm glad this came up before I put a lot of time into a Fujimi, only to be disappointed when I really looked at the thing.

Hmmmm...now, to decide what to do with the Fujimis, and whether I really want to replace all of 'em, or maybe narrow them a little and build weathered after-the-race versions where the discrepancies in proportions wouldn't be quite so obvious...with a Heller as a clean, more definitive example of the design.

Fujimi has a habit of doing 'optical corrections' to their models, or they do really bad research. Tamiya also does 'optical corrections', there's the story of ~2 mm being added to the master of their 1/12 Porsche 935.  I would rather have a dimensionally correct model.

Rob

[robdebie]

12 minutes ago, afx said:

There is also the Fisher 917LH to consider.  I have one in the stash and will check some dimensions when I get a chance.  I snatched these photos from the inteweb.

Ah yes, of course, Fisher makes nice 917s too. I would appreciate if you could measure the width over the front and rear fenders, plus the windscreen of course.

Rob

[afx]

Fisher also did the 917/20 but unfortunately I don't have one.

Edited September 25, 2019 by afx

[robdebie]

11 minutes ago, afx said:

Nice work Rob, would be interested in seeing more of your project and thank you for adding to the conversation

Thanks for the kind words.

There's not much more to report on that build. Maybe it's useful to tell that I decided to build it completely different compared to the instructions. I will build it in three big components: the whole body including sills, the engine bay with rear suspension, and the cokpit plus front suspension.

In the photos below you can see the sills cut off from the floor panel. I used parts from a second kit to make straight sills.

All in all it's a bit of a puzzle, and the project is of the stop-and-go kind that you're all familiar with  ? But it's good fun to do this old but detailed kit justice.

Rob

 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

32 minutes ago, robdebie said:

Fujimi has a habit of doing 'optical corrections' to their models, or they do really bad research. Tamiya also does 'optical corrections', there's the story of ~2 mm being added to the master of their 1/12 Porsche 935.  I would rather have a dimensionally correct model.

Rob

Agreed. The oft-cited "optical corrections" as being necessary for a model to look "right" in scale is absolute bunk. Photograph a correctly-scaled model with a good lens that doesn't distort the image, from the same angle you'd view the real car. It will appear identical to a similarly-sized photo of the original full-scale subject.

A competent designer or photographer will realize this.

I have personally designed things, built models in scale to develop the appearance in three dimensions, and then built the full-scale version exactly from the scaled-up dimensions. Surprise...the full-scale one looks just exactly like the scale model. It works in reverse just as well.

[aurfalien]

I'll probably end up buying the Renaissance corrective rear piece and post pictures of it versus the Fujimi part on this thread.  It's not a huge cost and should benefit our community.  Weather I use it will be a different story.

I "think" that in terms of "the look", that between shaving off here and there and "perhaps using the wider rear piece, that the Fujimi 917 will look much much better.

 

[Bainford]

2 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

 

Based on the 2300 mm wheelbase shown in Matt's last drawing, the base of the windshield scales out to be 976.5 mm at the widest point.

The Fujimi kit measures 46.36 mm. Multiplied by 24, the full-scale dimension would be 1112.64.

The Heller kit measures 41.28 mm at the same point. Multiplied by 24, the full-scale dimension would be 990.72...clearly much closer to scale-correct.

 

Thanks Bill, for making the effort to help sort this matter out.

And thanks as well to RobDebie for your excellent information. 

This is all valuable and hard to find (and decipher) information. Much appreciated.

[robdebie]

5 hours ago, robdebie said:

If you look at period photos, you can nicely see the step-by-step widening of the rear bodywork by looking at the door sills (I like to call them sponsons). They started out as straight parts all the way to the rear wheel opening. Then the wider bodywork for 15" wheels was put on, that created a mismatch with the still straight sills - the engine cover had an overhang. This is the configuration that I'm building, see photo below. New sills were made, with a curvature at the rear, so they would match again. But by then the again-wider bodywork for 17" rear wheels was introduced, and again there was a mismatch. New sills were made again to match that

Here's a drawing of what I described in words regarding the sill shape. Black is original, yellow the first widening, and red the final shape. But usually the sills were one step behind with the widening of the rear bodywork.

Rob de Bie

Edited September 25, 2019 by robdebie

[afx]

Picture below: Fisher 917LH - left, Heller - center, Fujimi - right.  The windshield width of the Fisher matches that of the Heller.

Some additional measurements

Width @ Front (measured across the axle line)

• Fisher: 77.4 mm – 1858 mm
• Heller: 76.5 mm – 1836 mm
• Fujimi: 82.1 mm – 1970 mm

Width @ Rear(measured at the widest point)

• Fisher: 87.2 mm – 2093 mm
• Heller: 87.3 mm – 2095 mm
• Fujimi: 87.8 mm – 2107 mm

The overhead silhouette of the Heller kit appears to match this drawing well.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by afx

[aurfalien]

Wow thanks JC, very very cool comparison.

[afx]

The white body is also Heller, the 1971 version with the tail fins.

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by afx

[afx]

http://www.wsrp.cz/chassis/chassis_porsche_917.html

 

Chassis	Model	Year	Group	First owner	Next owners (year)	Comment
917-001		1969	Gr.5	Porsche		Test car, now in Porsche Museum (painted as 1970 Le Mans winner).
917-002		1969	Gr.5	Porsche	{scrapped}	Test chassis, scrapped.
917-003		1969	Gr.5	Porsche	{scrapped}	Test chassis, then T-car at Spa 1969. Scrapped after accident.
917-004		1969	Gr.5	Porsche	=> John Wyer (1970)	Nürburgring '69 (Piper/Gardner). John Wyer then rebuilt after crash at Brands Hatch 1970 as 017.
917-005		1969	Gr.5	Porsche	=> John Woolfe (1969)	Spa '69 (Mitter) John Woolfe at Le Mans 1969 - destroyed
917-006		1969	Gr.5	Porsche	{scrapped}	Le Mans 1969 T-car. Roller endurance test, scrapped.
917-007		1969	Gr.5	Porsche	=> Gesipa (1970)	Stommelen/Ahrens LM 69. To Gesipa in 1970. Rebuilt as spyder in 1971
917-008		1969	Gr.5	Porsche	{scrapped}	Elford/Attwood LM 69. Roller endurance test in 1970, scrapped.
917-009		1969	Gr.5	Porsche/Von Wendt?	=> John Wyer (1970)	Siffert/Ahrens Zeltweg 1969. John Wyer car 1970. Scrapped after Sebring 1971
917-010		1969	Gr.5	David Piper		Sold to David Piper 1969. Still owned & raced by him to-day (1997)
917-011		1969	Gr.5	Porsche Salzburg	{written off => scrapped}	Porsche Salzburg no. 3 car at Daytona 1970. Written off while testing at Targa Florio 1970.
917-012		1969	Gr.5	Porsche	{scrapped, used to rebuild 917-021}	Scrapped after tests, 1969.
917-013		1969	Gr.5	John Wyer		John Wyer 1970. Used for Le Mans film and crashed by David Piper. Allegedly rebuilt with 034 parts, but kept number 013 (probably not true).
917-014		1969	Gr.5	John Wyer		John Wyer car 1970. Rebuilt for 1971 as 029.
917-015		1969	Gr.5	John Wyer		John Wyer car 1970. Daytona 24 Hours 1970 winner. Rebuilt as Spyder for Interserie 1971 with chassis 917-01-021. A new chassis 035 became 015 in 1971. In 2000 car was restored in its original Daytona 1970 configuration and Gulf colors by Gunnar Racing. But 917-01-021 was re-created using the original roll bar and rear section of the chassis while about 80% of the Spyder chassis was new.
917-016		1969	Gr.5	John Wyer		John Wyer car 1970-71
917-017*		1969	Gr.5	John Wyer	=> Ernst Kraus (1972)	John Wyer car, rebuild of 004, carrying number 004. Used in 1970-71
917-018		1969	Gr.5	Alex Soler-Roig	=> Chuck Stoddard (1975~2001)	Alex Soler-Roig, Spanish races 1970 , and Buenos Aires 1971
917-019		1969	Gr.5	Porsche Salzburg	=> Martini International (1971)	Porsche Salzburg 1970, Martini International 1971
917-020		1969	Gr.5	Porsche Salzburg	=> Martini International (1971) => Vasek Polak (end 1971÷1997) => Gustav Nitsche (~2001)	Porsche Salzburg 1970, Martini International 1971. Sebring 1971 winner. In 2000 restored in its Martini 1971 colors.
917-021		1969	Gr.5	Team AAW	=> David Piper (1971)	Team AAW 1970. Crashed at Le Mans. parts used to build 1971 spyder 917 01 021. It was also rebuilt using 917-012, possibly to David Piper (1971, Chris Craft in 1972 Interserie, for Piper-White Racing). Interestingly, at one point in this car's history it wore an Alabama license plate and was driven on Germany's public roads.
917-01-021	Spyder	1971	Gr.7	Team AAW	...=> Wayne Jackson (~2001)	Spyder built on 917-015 using parts from 021.Gunnar Racing restored 917-015 from 917-01-021 in 1999-2000, but re-created 917-01-021 using the original roll bar and rear section of the chassis. All of the original suspension, engine, gearbox and bodywork from the spyder have been used though.
917-022		1969	Gr.5	Solar Production	=> Brian Redman => Richard Attwood	Le Mans film car, Auto Usdau 1971. Originally purchased by Steve McQueen's Solar Productions for the movie "Le Mans." After the filming the car ran a couple of races and was briefly owned by Brian Redman, who then sold it to Attwood. Sold at auction in summer 2000. Limited use in competition.
917-023		1969	Gr.5	Porsche Salzburg	=> Martini International (1971) ...=> Matsuda Collection, J (early 1980s) => Dr. Julio Palmaz (early 2001)	Porsche Salzburg 1970, Martini International 1971. Winner of Le Mans 1970 - first ever Porsche victory at Le Mans. Wearing incorrect paint and secluded in Japan's famous Matsuda Collection since the early-1980s, this car has been returned to its proper Salzburg red and white livery (2000).
917-024		1969	Gr.5	Jo Siffert		Originally sold to Jo Siffert. Used for Le Mans film. No race history
917-025		1969	Gr.5	Zitro Racing		Team Zitro (Dominique Martin)
917-026		1969	Gr.5	John Wyer	=> Jürgen Neuhaus (1971) => Georg Loos (1972)	John Wyer car 1970. Crashed by Hailwood at Le Mans. Rebuilt using chassis 031. Original crashed chassis repaired and rebuild as Spyder for Uschi Heckersbruch driven by Neuhaus in 1971.
917-027	917PA	1969	Gr.7	Porsche		Prototype 917PA. Test chassis.
917-028	917PA	1969	Gr.7	Porsche/Audi	=> Vasek Polak (1971)	Siffert 1969, to Vasek Polak 1971 (Milt Minter). Given 917/10 body for CanAm 1973.
917-029			Gr.5	John Wyer	{renumbered as 014}	John Wyer car 1971, carried plate 014.
917-030			Gr.5	Porsche Salzburg	=> Martini International (1971)	Martini car Osterreichring 1971. To Count Rossi as road car
917-031			Gr.5	John Wyer	=> Ernst Kraus (1972) => Monsier Chandon, F => Mike Amalfino (1988~2001)	Used to rebuilt 026, used by John Wyer 1970-71. Possibly converted to spyder for Ernst Kraus.
917-032			Gr.5		{scrapped}	Scrapped after tests
917-033			Gr.5			Sold in Germany. Never used
917-034			Gr.5	John Wyer	{renumbered as 013}	Used as a 'new' 013.
917-035			Gr.5	John Wyer	{renumbered as 015}	Numbered as 015 for John Wyer 1971. A new chassis.
917-036			Gr.5			Car sold without engine. Never raced
917-040*	LH Coupe		Gr.5		{scrapped}	1970 Long-tail test car using parts of 917-006. Scrapped after accident.
917-041			Gr.5		{scrapped}	Le Mans tests 1970. Scrapped
917-042			Gr.5	Porsche Salzburg	=> Martini International (1971)	Elford/Ahrems Le Mans 1970., Elford/Attwood Le Mans 1971
917-043	LH Coupe		Gr.5	Martini International	=> John Wyer (19710	Martini long-tail Le Mans 1970, Rodriguez/Oliver le Mans 1971
917-044			Gr.5			Spare chassis.Never used
917-045			Gr.5	John Wyer		Siffert/Bell Le Mans 1971. Now in Le Mans museum, painted as Martini 1971 (042)
917-051			Gr.5		{scrapped}	Magnesium chassis; scrapped after tests
917-052		1971	Gr.5		{scrapped}	Magnesium chassis; scrapped after tests
917-053		1971	Gr.5	Int. Martini		Martini Le Mans 1971 (1st)

Note: Totally built 59 P-917s: In 1969-71 were 43 cars built (36 shorter version, 5 917L and 2 spiders) and 16 Porsche-Turbo (13x 917/10 and 3x 917/30).

Chassis 037, 038, 039, 046 - 050 weren't built.

[Bainford]

Interesting catalogue of chassis. It must have taken a lot of work to compile and fact check. Also, more chassis built than I would have though.

Very cool, thanks for posting.

[Gramps46]

These are the specifications by race from Peter Hinsdale's The Fabulous Porsche 917 and the profile drawings of Johnathan Thompson.