STYRENE-SURFER Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) Currently I am cooking up some parts for those of you that might want to put a big block Ford in it. (not the usual SOHC or Boss 429) A set of mid/late 60's speed parts primarily seen on front engine rail dragsters, Altered's and match racers. I have a couple masters done and just completed a deep pan oil cover. Plan is to make a shallow oil sump style pan as well. I have no knowledge of vintage f/e dragsters (and no kits in my collection). So... My question is. What would the oil pan on a typical dragster like these look like? Edited February 29, 2020 by STYRENE-SURFER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afx Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Modern photo so I'm not sure if it's period correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake45 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, afx said: Modern photo so I'm not sure if it's period correct. That's a SBC so might not be relevant for a FE Ford. The one in the Garlits dragster in kind of simple/plain. This is an early Hemi so here again, not sure how relevant it would be for your intentions. https://public.fotki.com/drasticplasticsmcc/mkiba-build-under-c/amt-instructions/straightline-competition/amt-top-fuel-hemi-s/8.html#media You might want to try google-imaging pics of Pete Robinson's or Prudhomme's Shelby Super Snake dragsters, both of which had blown SOHCs. Or maybe Dyno Don's Eliminator Cyclones and Cougars. Maybe you can get a glimpse of some oil pans there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afx Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, Snake45 said: That's a SBC so might not be relevant for a FE Ford. Yea, just trying to find a photo of an oil pan on a rail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STYRENE-SURFER Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 18 minutes ago, Snake45 said: The one in the Garlits dragster in kind of simple/plain. This is an early Hemi so here again, not sure how relevant it would be for your intentions. You might want to try google-imaging pics of Pete Robinson's or Prudhomme's Shelby Super Snake dragsters, both of which had blown SOHCs. Or maybe Dyno Don's Eliminator Cyclones and Cougars. Maybe you can get a glimpse of some oil pans there. Snake, I'll take a look at that for sure. Not yet sure how interchangeable those pieces might be between the Hemi and Ford blocks. Will do a diligent Google following your tips. 20 minutes ago, afx said: Yea, just trying to find a photo of an oil pan on a rail. JC, it may be a SBC, but that does look like an stock oil pan in that rail so perhaps in the early days it was typical to use the factory pan. I really don't know for sure though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STYRENE-SURFER Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 I should also ask for anyone interested in this endeavor of mine, what parts would you like to have available? will be working on a M/T style timing cover soon to go with the blower manifold parts. This will hopefully give options to build something different than the Chrysler Hemi, Ford SOHC powered models we see everyday. That's the plan anyway ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STYRENE-SURFER Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) Here is a pick of parts so far (well not all of them) in this assembly. In GRAY shown on my everlasting Mustang Altered/Match racer build. More masters to create. Edited February 29, 2020 by STYRENE-SURFER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake45 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 The Ford FE is a front-sump engine (in normal use, anyway). SOHC block is based on 427 side-oiler block, near as I can figure. I tried to find some pics of blown SOHCs just for grins. Found one in Prudhomme's dragster where it looks like the pan is fairly shallow, and flat-ish. It might have used a dry sump system. Another one you could look for pics of would be Ohio George Montgomery's engine in the Willys. Also found this interesting looking oil pan. http://www.cobranda.com/bigblcooilpa.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STYRENE-SURFER Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 The FE (Ford-Edsel) 427 is different than the SOHC. Here is a bit of history snipped from a rcnmag.com article. Maybe you’ve read about a side-oiler here or there, or you know a guy in the local Cobra club has one that the other members drool over. But what is it that makes the 427 side-oiler more exciting than other Ford V8s? The 427 side-oiler engine belongs to the Ford FE family, arguably the peak of Ford’s big cubic inch V8s. The FE was available from 1958 to ’76 in displacements from 330 to 428 cubic inches. These engines took the place of the outgoing Y-block engine which only ran for a few years after replacing the flathead V8. The FE went through different iterations and was constantly being adjusted and perfected before being replaced by the 335-series (351C/M and 400) and 385-series (370, 429 and 460) engines. While it was second in displacement to the 428, the 427 was first in performance and the only ‘race-only’ engine in the FE family. Launched in 1963, the 427 engine actually measured 425.98 cubic inches, but was deemed the 427 because this was the maximum engine displacement permitted by a few different race-sanctioning bodies at that time. The thin-wall block was cast with a high-nickel alloy and featured a thicker deck to withstand higher compression ratios. A shorter 3.784-inch stroke was used for high rpm operation, but the 4.233-inch bore pushed the limits of the FE design. It’s important to note that the 427 cannot be bored more than 0.030 inch safely. Several improvements were made to ensure the 427 engine could endure sustained high rpm (above 5,000) abuse. Up top, most 427s used solid lifters instead of hydraulic lifters for improved horsepower figures at high rpm. Steel cranks were also used because they were a little stronger than their cast counterparts. For added durability under heavy loads, the main bearing webs were reinforced and main bearing caps were cross-bolted. These improvements to the rotating assembly proved beneficial, but weren’t entirely sufficient for the abuses these engines would endure in NASCAR and Le Mans racing. For that, Ford needed to reprioritize engine oiling. In the standard 427 engine, now dubbed the top-oiler or center-oiler, oil was pumped to a passage under the camshaft and up to the valve train before oiling the crank. To keep the crankshaft happier at the top of the rev range, Ford added a special oil passage along the left side of the block to direct oil to the crank first, and then the cam and valve train. This new oil passage from the side of the block resulted in its new moniker, the side-oiler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STYRENE-SURFER Posted March 1, 2020 Author Share Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) Snake... I just reread your last post and now understand what you were saying. LOL Yes there could be a pan from the SOHC dragster kits that would make a good donor part / starting point. ? Edited March 1, 2020 by STYRENE-SURFER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drag racer 15 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 I think low profile full sump oil pans where used on a lot of dragsters no matter the engine milodon was founded in 1957 so aftermarket oil pans did exist also speed city resin offers a timing cover valve covers and a hillborn fuel injection manifold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) Normally the Ford FE as well as most of the other Ford V8's has the deep part of the oil pan at the front of the engine as the oil pump is located there, but with a longer oil pickup you can put the deep part at the rear, as long as the front part of the pan is deep enough for the oil pump to fit in there it will work just fine. Another solution to get more oil volume is to make the deeper part of the pan wider instead of making it deeper and modifying an oil pan is not exactly rocket science. The pictures below are of 427 SOHC dragster engines and one type of oil pan pan used, the SOHC is FE based so it can for sure be used on regular FE engines as well. It doesn't seem like they use a dry sump system as I can't see any scavenge pumps or oil lines, Ford had dry sump oil systems on the FE 427 for the GT40 Mk II and Mk IV in 1966 and 1967 and the NASCAR and Can Am 429 Boss for 1969-70-71-72ish but none of them looks to be in use as the scavenge pumps were integrated in a special timing chain cover for the FE 427 and in the front of the oil pan for the 429 Boss, so I believe they used regular oil pumps in the dragsters with FE engines. It looks like they use a girdle to stabilize the bottom end tho' Edited March 1, 2020 by Force Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STYRENE-SURFER Posted March 2, 2020 Author Share Posted March 2, 2020 On 2/29/2020 at 9:17 PM, drag racer 15 said: speed city resin offers a timing cover valve covers and a hillborn fuel injection manifold Noah, that timing cover is based off the Revell parts pack 427. And unfortunately no longer available. ? On 3/1/2020 at 7:25 AM, Force said: Håkan, that type of oil pan is probably close. On some early photographs Ive found of vintage funny cars, dragsters (thats what I'm making parts for). You can see an oil pump/filter on the front side of the block where that aluminum colored cover w/four bolts on it appear in your pic. That is a shared feature w/both Wedge and SOHC engines. I wish I could find some good pics on the net showing more detail, Google, Google, Google.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 On 2/28/2020 at 8:39 PM, STYRENE-SURFER said: Here is a pick of parts so far (well not all of them) in this assembly. In GRAY shown on my everlasting Mustang Altered/Match racer build. More masters to create. Can you post more pics of this project? Looks killer! Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake45 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 On 3/1/2020 at 9:25 AM, Force said: Normally the Ford FE as well as most of the other Ford V8's has the deep part of the oil pan at the front of the engine as the oil pump is located there, but with a longer oil pickup you can put the deep part at the rear, as long as the front part of the pan is deep enough for the oil pump to fit in there it will work just fine. Another solution to get more oil volume is to make the deeper part of the pan wider instead of making it deeper and modifying an oil pan is not exactly rocket science. The pictures below are of 427 SOHC dragster engines and one type of oil pan pan used, the SOHC is FE based so it can for sure be used on regular FE engines as well. It doesn't seem like they use a dry sump system as I can't see any scavenge pumps or oil lines, Ford had dry sump oil systems on the FE 427 for the GT40 Mk II and Mk IV in 1966 and 1967 and the NASCAR and Can Am 429 Boss for 1969-70-71-72ish but none of them looks to be in use as the scavenge pumps were integrated in a special timing chain cover for the FE 427 and in the front of the oil pan for the 429 Boss, so I believe they used regular oil pumps in the dragsters with FE engines. It looks like they use a girdle to stabilize the bottom end tho' Great info, great pics, thanks for posting these! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) On 3/3/2020 at 12:47 AM, STYRENE-SURFER said: Noah, that timing cover is based off the Revell parts pack 427. And unfortunately no longer available. ? Håkan, that type of oil pan is probably close. On some early photographs Ive found of vintage funny cars, dragsters (thats what I'm making parts for). You can see an oil pump/filter on the front side of the block where that aluminum colored cover w/four bolts on it appear in your pic. That is a shared feature w/both Wedge and SOHC engines. I wish I could find some good pics on the net showing more detail, Google, Google, Google.? The aluminum colored cover w/four bolts is where the oil filter adapter/housing usually are as it's a separate piece on the FE, and this plate seems to be just a block off plate, behind that plate it's only two oil passages, one comes from the oil pump and goes in to the filter and the other one goes back into the oil gallery inside the block...so it's just like a loop and nothing more fancy than that. Sometimes remote oil filters are used and there are a couple different adapters for that, and they are bolted at the same place as the reguar filter adapter/housing. You can't put an external oil pump at this spot (like on a Mopar 383-440 RB and Hemi) as you don't have any way to drive it, the oil pump on a FE is internal and driven with an axle from the cam shaft and distributor right above it. The Mopar RB oil pump are on the outside of the block and is also driven from the cam shaft and distributor but the axle for the pump goes all the way through the engine block to the outside pump. Here is a picture of the 390 engine I'm rebuilding right now for my 1963½ Galaxie to explain how it looks like behind that block off plate. Edited March 4, 2020 by Force Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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