Anyone with access to a 1983-1986 T-Bird?

[robdebie]

I'm building and correcting a Monogram 1983-1986 NASCAR T-Bird, and one of the corrections involves the headlights. The headlights of the Monogram 1983-1986 NASCAR T-Bird are often critized. It was only when I found this picture of the real headlight buckets that I saw how the kit parts should like like:

I started work on the kit parts by removing the vertical faces, and extending the 'tunnels' rearwards with two 1 x 0.4 mm strips.

Now I need to decide where to place the vertical divider, and how deep the two headlight buckets are.

Is there maybe someone around with access to the real thing, who can do some measurements?

Here's a photo of the model so far. I've lengthened and dropped the nose (3 mm and 1.5 mm respectively), moved the front and rear wheel openings forward, and I'm about halfway now :-)

Rob

Edited December 2, 2016 by robdebie

[espo]

Are building a production T-Bird or a NASCAR version? This could be real cool if you are building a street car with the NSASCAR body, but if you're going NASCAR I think you could look at some of the old on line pictures of the racing versions to see. If you're going NASCAR remember that the "headlights" were just decals covering smooth body work  in later years.    

[robdebie]

Are building a production T-Bird or a NASCAR version? This could be real cool if you are building a street car with the NSASCAR body, but if you're going NASCAR I think you could look at some of the old on line pictures of the racing versions to see. If you're going NASCAR remember that the "headlights" were just decals covering smooth body work  in later years.    

I'm building the NASCAR speedway version. I've narrowed the fenders considerably to make it a lot less wider than the original Monogram model, that is often critisized for its 'balloon' fenders. The car starts to look like the road car, I agree with you!

Here's a photo of the real car at Daytona in 1985. I'm pretty sure the team used a stock headlight part: you can even see the elongated screw hole on the grill side, that's also visible in the first photo that I posted. They added blanking plates at the rear.

Rob

[espo]

I'm building the NASCAR speedway version. I've narrowed the fenders considerably to make it a lot less wider than the original Monogram model, that is often critisized for its 'balloon' fenders. The car starts to look like the road car, I agree with you!

Here's a photo of the real car at Daytona in 1985. I'm pretty sure the team used a stock headlight part: you can even see the elongated screw hole on the grill side, that's also visible in the first photo that I posted. They added blanking plates at the rear.

Rob

The picture looks like the Bill Elliot T-Bird (Million Dollar Bill from Dawsonville) and at that time they may have been required to have a headlight shape just like a production car. In later years the  rules changed and they were allowed to have smooth body work in that area and use a decal to represent the headlamps. Almost every year NASCAR would and still does change what they will allow as far as body aero modifications. It will be interesting to watch your build. Are going for a specific year and drivers car  ? There are many here far more knowledgeable than I on specific years and rules. I'm sure if you ask they would be more than happy to assist if needed.  

[robdebie]

 Are going for a specific year and drivers car  ? There are many here far more knowledgeable than I on specific years and rules. I'm sure if you ask they would be more than happy to assist if needed.  

Yes, you got the driver right: it's Bill Elliott. I picked the Daytona 1985 race for my model. The kit body is pretty awful, full of errors. But you've got to know that the kit was designed before the real car hit the tracks. I think my tally will be 25 modifications in the body alone. Track is reduced from appr. 62 inches to 58 inches.

For my original question I need help from someone with the 1:1 scale street version, or from someone with access to one. I don't know whether many are still around?

Rob

[espo]

Yes, you got the driver right: it's Bill Elliott. I picked the Daytona 1985 race for my model. The kit body is pretty awful, full of errors. But you've got to know that the kit was designed before the real car hit the tracks. I think my tally will be 25 modifications in the body alone. Track is reduced from appr. 62 inches to 58 inches.

For my original question I need help from someone with the 1:1 scale street version, or from someone with access to one. I don't know whether many are still around?

Rob

You seem quite knowledgeable of the subject and NASCAR in general. You might try NASCAR .com and that would get you into current information and then that may offer a way to get more specific information. If you Google Bill Elliot that might offer some options to find sights with additional info. The only real relationship between the production car and the race car had to do with a templet that checked the alignment of the grill, hood, roof and rear deck lid. I just do not recall the different Ford teams of the time. If you can find out who Elliot drove for at that time they may have a web sight were you could get the info you need. I think he was an independent driver /owner at the time. I remember his brother was his crew chief for most of his early career and I believe that his father had a Ford dealership in the south and that was how he got started in racing. Again I'm not 100% sure , but that is what I recall.  

[Casey]

 I don't know whether many are still around?

I don't think there were many around when they were new. They didn't seem nearly as popular as Monte Carlo SSs, which are still common (for a 25+ year old vehicle) to see, even around here in Wisconsin-- I saw one on Wednesday, in fact.

The last '83-4 T-bird I saw was this one in June, and it was probably only the second one I have seen in the last 15 years...the other was in a salvage yard. 

 

Try checking out some T-bird forums, as I'm sure a member would be happy to get a quick measurement or five for you.

[Fat Brian]

I can't get you a specific measurement but I can tell you the headlights that car uses are 6 1/2 inches wide and 4 1/4 inches tall. Now that we've got some references it looks like the set back of the outer lights is about 2 1/2 inches. If you cast those I'd be in for a couple of pairs, I've got a couple of those kits I want to fix a bit as well.

[robdebie]

You seem quite knowledgeable of the subject and NASCAR in general. You might try NASCAR .com and that would get you into current information and then that may offer a way to get more specific information. If you Google Bill Elliot that might offer some options to find sights with additional info. The only real relationship between the production car and the race car had to do with a templet that checked the alignment of the grill, hood, roof and rear deck lid. I just do not recall the different Ford teams of the time. If you can find out who Elliot drove for at that time they may have a web sight were you could get the info you need. I think he was an independent driver /owner at the time. I remember his brother was his crew chief for most of his early career and I believe that his father had a Ford dealership in the south and that was how he got started in racing. Again I'm not 100% sure , but that is what I recall.  

David, you're right that he was an independent, with his family running the team. I already searched high and low for information, and I found quite a lot. It lead to lots of body modifications, and I'm now ready to correct the headlights, but I'm a bit stuck there..

Rob

[robdebie]

I don't think there were many around when they were new. They didn't seem nearly as popular as Monte Carlo SSs, which are still common (for a 25+ year old vehicle) to see, even around here in Wisconsin-- I saw one on Wednesday, in fact.

The last '83-4 T-bird I saw was this one in June, and it was probably only the second one I have seen in the last 15 years...the other was in a salvage yard. 

Try checking out some T-bird forums, as I'm sure a member would be happy to get a quick measurement or five for you.

Casey, thanks for the photos, they are always useful to compare to the kit. I hadn't thought about T-bird forums, but that might be the answer to my question. I will try that in the next few days.

Rob

[robdebie]

I can't get you a specific measurement but I can tell you the headlights that car uses are 6 1/2 inches wide and 4 1/4 inches tall. Now that we've got some references it looks like the set back of the outer lights is about 2 1/2 inches. If you cast those I'd be in for a couple of pairs, I've got a couple of those kits I want to fix a bit as well.

Brian, thanks for the measurements! I'm happy to report that the openings in the kit's headlight match your dimenions pretty well. It might be enough to figure out how to finish the modification of the kit parts. I can't do casting at the moment, but if that changes I will run a small series.

Rob

[espo]

Brian, thanks for the measurements! I'm happy to report that the openings in the kit's headlight match your dimenions pretty well. It might be enough to figure out how to finish the modification of the kit parts. I can't do casting at the moment, but if that changes I will run a small series.

Rob

Rob. I forgot, but I have a poster that I received in 1991 that shows the side view of the Championship cars for the years 1971 thru 1990. I was fortunate enough to have Dale Earnhardt sign it when I meet him in 1991. The picture of Bill Elliot's 1988 Championship car does look like the headlight buckets are open, but the 1989 Pontiac of Rusty Wallace  shows the smooth fender and decal headlights that I mentioned. The Chevrolet Lumina that Dale won the 1990 Championship with is also smooth. This leads me to believe that Bill's car from 1988 was possibly the last year for that style of headlight. Good to see someone was able to supply you with an accurate measurement of the headlights.

[Fat Brian]

Rob. I forgot, but I have a poster that I received in 1991 that shows the side view of the Championship cars for the years 1971 thru 1990. I was fortunate enough to have Dale Earnhardt sign it when I meet him in 1991. The picture of Bill Elliot's 1988 Championship car does look like the headlight buckets are open, but the 1989 Pontiac of Rusty Wallace  shows the smooth fender and decal headlights that I mentioned. The Chevrolet Lumina that Dale won the 1990 Championship with is also smooth. This leads me to believe that Bill's car from 1988 was possibly the last year for that style of headlight. Good to see someone was able to supply you with an accurate measurement of the headlights.

The T bird also changed body styles between 88 and 89 and the new body was supposed to be more aerodynamic.

88

 

89

[espo]

The T bird also changed body styles between 88 and 89 and the new body was supposed to be more aerodynamic.

88

 

89

That may be why NASCAR allowed the change to the bodies since the production cars were going to the composite type lights.    

[THarrison351]

Don't forget to check out Randy Ayer's NASCAR modelers. Lots of great NASCAR knowledge on that site.

[robdebie]

Don't forget to check out Randy Ayer's NASCAR modelers. Lots of great NASCAR knowledge on that site.

Tim, thanks, I'm already active on the Randy Ayer's NASCAR forum. For my headlight question I thought I might have a better chance on this forum.

Rob

[1930fordpickup]

Bill Elliot was driving for Melling by 1983 so if you are doing an 85  car that would be a good place to start. As far as wheel base an track width I do believe that NASCAR had rules and still do for these requirements. The teams had to make the car match the rule book. I do not know where you got your numbers  Also remember that the templates back then were not as close as they are today, and there were not as many for the car to match. Each team had a good idea of how the body was shaped. LOL  I hope this helps you a little. 

[Edsel-Dan]

You could also look for the Bill Elliot Museum 

If still active (His son Chase is Rookie Of The Year for 2016 so likely IS) 

They might even have a few of those cars in the Collection

 

Melling did not fully buy the team from the Elliot Brothers

He did sponser them though

 

In Fact he offered them a ONE Race deal.

But a race or so later they could not afford to repaint the car and left his decals on

This lead him to full time sponsership

 

When he left Bill drove for Junior Johnson/Budweiser

But they did not have the success expected

Bill last drove for Ray Everingham in Dodges

 

I Do not remember who he was with between Johnson & Everingham