DIY Paint Booth with no ventilation, question.

[Kodski]

Hey all,

Hope this is in the right section. I have an idea on a DIY paint booth but I"m not sure it will work and wanted to ask your opinions on it. First of all, I live in a small apartment and the only windows are in the living room and bedroom, while I do my models in the spare room. So my biggest problem is that I have no ventilation in the room. This is what posses my question. While most paint booths ventilate outside, I need a way to purify that air before its reintroduced back into the room. My only idea for this so far is to run it through a homemade air purifier. My idea of a purifier consists of  bubbling the air through a column of water to separate the impurities from the air and trap them in the water which can later be dumped down the sink. Now the question is will this work or not and are there any other ideas out there? I'm sure someone somewhere has been in my situation and came up with a solution for it. 

 

EDIT: I guess I should also note that most of the paint I'm using is water based. But I would Like to get into 2k clears such as the ones from Zero Paints.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Kodski

[Miatatom]

I'm curious but very skeptical. To get a decent flow through a small paint booth, you'll need at least 100 cfm of air flow and that's without the added restriction of blowing the air through a column of water. I haven't the foggiest idea how to calculate the amount but I bet that water column would have to be pretty substantial and probably a bit messy. 

[Belugawrx]

So,.... like,.... you are going to filter the air through a Bong...?

 

Naww.... it'll never work,... just put your spray booth in the livin room were there is a window

[Kodski]

So there are reasons as to why I can't use the living room to paint. Two small furry reasons.. One of which ONLY resides in the living room. So living room is out of the question. Also the bedroom is too, unless I want to be in the dog house for the next month. If you refer to this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyEyO4iuz5E You'll see almost exactly what I'm talking about. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

As the other guys have pointed out, though filtering through water certainly could work with enough engineering, it's most likely WAY beyond the scope of a DIY project. The 100CFM-minimum airflow requirement makes it extremely unlikely you could collect and force that much air through water fast enough to do you any good.

Also bear in mind that the "2k" clears you want to use contain isocyanates in the hardener, and these are DANGEROUS IRRITANTS to the eyes, lungs, throat and nasal passages.

A large activated-charcoal filtration system could remove these with less air-flow restriction than water, but again, it would require some careful engineering.

Think in terms of a good sized exhaust fan pulling air through a particulate-filter first, and then through a carbon or charcoal furnace filter...or several.

And remember that just because you may not be able to SMELL any fumes, they may still be there in amounts that can harm you.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

If you refer to this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyEyO4iuz5E You'll see almost exactly what I'm talking about. 

Yes, it bubbles air through water. But probably not even in the ballpark as to the kind of volume you'll need for a paint booth, and as isocyanates released during spraying 2K will largely be in vapor form, it's entirely possible the water filter may not remove them.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Ace-Garageguy

[Kodski]

Yes, it bubbles air through water. But probably not even in the ballpark as to the kind of volume you'll need for a paint booth, and as isocyanates released during painting will largely be in vapor form, it's entirely possible the water filter may not remove them.

See that was exactly what I was thinking and the problem I saw with this system. Now I'm not really afraid of engineering something as I'm currently studying mechanical engineering at UW Platteville. So my mind has several ideas on how to possibly make this work. First of all, the bubble size would need to be reduced. To do this with adding minimal resistance to the system a bubble plate could be used. This could also allow for more contact time between the water and air. Secondly, contact time. A wide container would not be as effective and a narrow tall container. Two unknowns are how large of a scale is needed for this, and how effective it will be. But something I'd like to consider is how much do I really need to remove from the air. In reality I'm not looking to remove 100% of the pollution. To be honest though I'm not sure how much is need either. Could be 50% could be 90%.

[Ace-Garageguy]

But something I'd like to consider is how much do I really need to remove from the air. In reality I'm not looking to remove 100% of the pollution. To be honest though I'm not sure how much is need either. Could be 50% could be 90%.

If you're shooting water-based acrylics, relatively non-toxic, all you probably need is a particulate filter (just to remove droplets from the air, and a regular furnace filter would work fine).

If you're spraying materials containing organic vapors or isocyanates, it's an entirely different deal. How much do you consider "safe" to inhale? 

You might want to lay in a supply of guinea pigs to test the efficacy of your system before committing to using it in the place you, your family, and your pets live.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Here's a little background on organic-vapor filtration using activated carbon.

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/990135O/how-an-organic-vapor-cartridge-works.pdf

And here's a link to "Safe Work Procedures for Products Containing Isocyanates"

http://www.actsafe.ca/wp-content/uploads/resources/pdf/Isocyanates.pdf

[Kodski]

If you're shooting water-based acrylics, relatively non-toxic, all you probably need is a particulate filter (just to remove droplets from the air, and a regular furnace filter would work fine).

If you're spraying materials containing organic vapors or isocyanates, it's an entirely different deal. How much do you consider "safe" to inhale? 

You might want to lay in a supply of guinea pigs to test the efficacy of your system before committing to using it in the place you, your family, and your pets live.

After reading some MSD's and as someone with asthma I think I'd rather choose to avoid isocyanates and stick to water-based paints. I have a water-based clear coat made by createx but I feel that it leaves something to be desired and would like to try something else out.

[Phirewriter]

Createx and other waterbourne paint will take a lacquer clear like Testors or Tamiya so a 2 part clear isn't necessary for a nice finish. I use Auto Air on some projects. I would still try to vent outside if possible.

I have yet to find a water based or acrylic clear that works well. I know there are proponents of Future and I've tried it, however all the models I used it on are now showing cracks in the clear. They were sprayed around 10 years ago.

I personally use hobby lacquer and automotive 2 part clear but have a large exterior vented spray booth, use a pro quality mask, gloves and eye protection. You can be effected by other means than just inhaling fumes.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Phirewriter

[Xingu]

Like Bill has already mentioned, just passing it through water is going to be difficult. Activated carbon would be your best bet at getting something that works. Activated carbon is also used in aquarium filtration, so you have some options on where to purchase it. If you don't get it right, yours neighbors will let you know. Some of the paints and clears have very strong odors.

[Phirewriter]

Forgot to mention in my earlier post, charcoal furnace and air purifier filters are readily available from a number of outlets. While they're on the expensive side they should work for an indoor application for light use.

[1930fordpickup]

Why not get a hose that will reach the window from the extra room. Just put it away when you are done painting. I understand that this is not an easy task to keep doing but you might be happier in the long run. 

 

[redneckrigger]

Back in the early 90's when I owned a body shop, we put in a Spraybake spray booth. It was a full downdraft, heated, baking booth with water wash filtration for the exhaust air. It worked well, releasing very clean air to the environment. The intake air was heated with a 200 degree rise and filtered, and the exhaust air was scrubbed clean as well, with all makeup air coming from outside, and zero infiltration of shop air, made possible by independent intake and exhaust fans providing positive booth pressure. But, on a tiny, almost microscopic scale in comparison, I think Ace-Garageguy has the right suggestion. I am hoping to do something very similar very soon. I will be using a 12 volt, explosion proof bilge blower exhaust fan, from a boat, that puts out 250 CFM and will be powered by a transformer. It will be filtered as well, much along the lines suggested above. I do think that the exhaust filtering by water is a great idea, but on this scale not practical.

Edited February 13, 2017 by redneckrigger

[Kodski]

Here's a little background on organic-vapor filtration using activated carbon.

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/990135O/how-an-organic-vapor-cartridge-works.pdf

And here's a link to "Safe Work Procedures for Products Containing Isocyanates"

http://www.actsafe.ca/wp-content/uploads/resources/pdf/Isocyanates.pdf

Thank you so much for providing this information. This was the stuff I was looking for. So from what everyone is telling me activated carbon seems to be a safe filter for isocyanates? But I'm also assuming that after running the fumes through an activated carbon filter they are venting it to the outside and not inside? I'm quite familiar with activated carbon having several aquariums in the past. I'm sure I even have some in storage somewhere. 

 

Back in the early 90's when I owned a body shop, we put in a Spraybake spray booth. It was a full downdraft, heated, baking booth with water wash filtration for the exhaust air. It worked well, releasing very clean air to the environment. The intake air was heated with a 200 degree rise and filtered, and the exhaust air was scrubbed clean as well, with all makeup air coming from outside, and zero infiltration of shop air, made possible by independent intake and exhaust fans providing positive booth pressure. But, on a tiny, almost microscopic scale in comparison, I think Ace-Garageguy has the right suggestion. I am hoping to do something very similar very soon. I will be using a 12 volt, explosion proof bilge blower exhaust fan, from a boat, that puts out 250 CFM and will be powered by a transformer. It will be filtered as well, much along the lines suggested above. I do think that the exhaust filtering by water is a great idea, but on this scale not practical.

This was my line of thinking. I knew such filters existed but from what I was it was only on a larger scale. Mainly used in industrial settings to control pollution output of factories. There isn't a whole lot of information out there on them and how they work. So thank you for the explanation. 

[redneckrigger]

Yeah, the whole idea was to make clean discharge air. It did work very well too, but it was absolutely amazing how much sludge would be found in the sump. My shop help hated cleaning that out, and it was hazardous waste for sure. The activated carbon/charcoal filter masks worked well for isocyanates but of course, filtered positive pressure breathing air was preferred, and is what we used in the booth. We closed the shop just as water borne systems were becoming popular. I never once did, or have since then, used any water borne paints.

Edited February 13, 2017 by redneckrigger