Who came up with the 1:20 scale kits and why?!

[Mike999]

2 hours ago, zenrat said:

Why 1/35 for military models but 1/32 for aircraft?

 

There's another can of worms.  According to Mr. Shunsaku Tamiya himself, founder of That Model Company, it was almost purely random chance. This is from his book, "Master Modeler:"

"After the success of the Panther, I thought it would be a good idea for us to produce other tanks from different countries in the same scale. I measured the Panther and it turned out to be about 1/35 of the size of the original. This size had been chosen simply because it would accommodate a couple of B-type batteries. Tamiya's 1/35 series tanks eventually got to be known around the world, but this is the slightly haphazard origin of their rather awkward scale."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1:35_scale

You probably know some military models really were 1/32.  AIRFIX launched a whole 1/32 line in the 1970s, with the "Rommel" SdKfz 250 half-track, American Lee/Grant tanks and others.  For people to go with the 1/32 vehicles, AIRFIX did the very nice "Multipose" line of 1/32 figures.  The 1/32 armor line just never really caught on. Though builders still seek out those "Multipose" figures to this very day. 

Then there was Monogram, determined to confuse things even further.  They did some military kits starting in the 1950s/60s sold as 1/32 scale, but were really closer to 1/35:  M48 Patton tank, Studebaker Weasel, etc.  When 1/35 scale became popular, Monogram re-released those kits with that scale on the box.  But they also did real 1/32 scale Lee/Grant tanks, German Pz IV and variants. A whole lot of people got started in military modeling because of those kits and the Shep Paine diorama brochures included with them in the mid-1970s.

Until the release of new M48 kits by Dragon and Revell-Germany, the only way to build an early M48A2 "gasser" Patton tank was by cutting out the engine deck of the Monogram kit and splicing it into the Tamiya or Academy M48A3.  Those parts fit together fairly well, so that old "Big Pat" Monogram kit from the 50's was definitely closer to 1/35 than 1/32.  Some builders have also done detailed measurements showing that.

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Mike999
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[zenrat]

Thanks Mike.

I had always wondered.

I had a whole heap of the soft plastic 1/32 Airfix soldiers which for a number of years fought out almost daily battles on the playroom floor.  Green Team (Aussies, Brits and US Marines) vs Blue/Grey/Yellow Team (Wehrmacht,  Russian and Africa Korp).  Support by Britains diecast artillery (54mm scale* i believe), diecast armour (Dinky amongst others 1/32?) and my pride and joy, an Airfix 1/32 Stalwart (prebuilt - not a kit.  Unboxed and beaten up so worth nothing today but I wish I still had it).

*  Another can of worms - Wargame scales.  And lets not mention HO/OO railway and the different N gauges...

[peteski]

3 hours ago, zenrat said:

Thanks Mike.

I had always wondered.

I had a whole heap of the soft plastic 1/32 Airfix soldiers which for a number of years fought out almost daily battles on the playroom floor.  Green Team (Aussies, Brits and US Marines) vs Blue/Grey/Yellow Team (Wehrmacht,  Russian and Africa Korp).  Support by Britains diecast artillery (54mm scale* i believe), diecast armour (Dinky amongst others 1/32?) and my pride and joy, an Airfix 1/32 Stalwart (prebuilt - not a kit.  Unboxed and beaten up so worth nothing today but I wish I still had it).

*  Another can of worms - Wargame scales.  And lets not mention HO/OO railway and the different N gauges...

Yes, model railroads have their own scale problems. But it is a scale, not gauge problem. N gauge is always 9mm but it can be used for several scales (like 1:148, 1:150 and 1:160). Same with G-gauge track -it can be used fo several scale models

Then there are "box scales". In the '60s kit manufacturers were using standardized size boxes. So they made models (usually aircraft or ships) to fit the standard-size box.  That resulted in all sorts of odd scales.  Then there are  Matchbox diecasts: those were also scaled to fit in the standard-size box, resulting in a wide range of vehicle scales being used.

[djflyer]

The F1 kit market has had me a bit curious also.  Tamiya chugged along for years producing F1 in 20th scale while producing their sports racing kits in 24th.  The only other sources for F1 being Heller, English white-metal kits and some resin in 24th.  Protar and Hasegawa jumped in and produced some excellent 24th scale kits while Gunze made some that were little more than great decals.  RoG started in the early 2000's with their line of 24th scale kits and then everything in 24th scale stopped. 

It seems there has been a recent explosion of sources for F1, all in 20th scale but I never understood the change to that as the preferred scale.   Yes, the larger scale can allow for more detail, but not that much more than 24th.

[Pete J.]

I am going to throw in my opinion on this one just for kicks.  I did some drafting in college, back before CAD.  Heck, the computer the university had filled the basement of one of the buildings and was run buy punch cards.  As a draftsman we had to be able to work with scales of all kinds.  Back then there were two basic groups of drawing we did.  Architectural and engineering. Building aka architectural  drawings were done in feet, inches and fractions of inches and engineering drawings (machinist) were feet and decimals(tenth to thousandths).   In other words they were done this way because the one to ones were measured that way.   You can still buy the triangular scale rulers that we used.  They are called "engineers scale" and "architects scale". Google them if you want to see one. 

  Because engineers scales are all divisible by 10, I can see those types of scales being easier to work with in countries the use a metric system.  Since Tamiya is a Japanese based company and Japan uses the metric system, it makes sense that when they measure out a one to one in metric.  Then scale it with a system that works well with that, thus 1:20.  Now that actually make their other scales make less sense, unless it is just to follow the rest of the world.  Go figure. 

[Brian Austin]

20 hours ago, zenrat said:

Why 1/35 for military models but 1/32 for aircraft?

 

A somewhat arbitrary decision that became a standard.  You can blame Tamiya. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1:35_scale

The scale sometimes is used with promo diecast vehicles.  I have a '90s Mercedes sedan diecast in this scale, which is not far off the 1:36 diecast toy scale.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Brian Austin

[Casey]

On 11/30/2017 at 8:39 AM, Daddyfink said:

Is it strange that I have never owned this kit? When it seems that just about everyone was trying to get rid of them. But, I do have the Accurate Miniatures versions.

It's definitely odd considering the kits you grew up building and mentioned having interest in on this forum, but the subject is very unique, so maybe outside the realm of most people's interests. I want to say the BBC ebgine was nicely done, and definitely better detailed than the generic BBC in MPC's 1/20 Popcorn Wagon, etc., but there were a lot of one-off race car parts which couldn't be used on a street car (four spoke, four-lug wheels for one), so not even as useful for parts swapping as the Popcorn Wagon, Ford vans, Corvettes, etc.

Monogram 1/20 scale kits are dirt cheap at shows,. I recall one vendor had many of the Camaro and Corvette kits (and maybe even the Jeep, too) priced at $15, without any takers. The Monogram kits art least had a nice set of Goodyear Eagle GT radial tires, which are a nice upgrade from the mid '60s bias ply tires found in the MPC AMX/Corvette kits.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Casey

[Mike999]

15 hours ago, Brian Austin said:

A somewhat arbitrary decision that became a standard.  You can blame Tamiya. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1:35_scale

The scale sometimes is used with promo diecast vehicles.  I have a '90s Mercedes sedan diecast in this scale, which is not far off the 1:36 diecast toy scale.

That Mercedes must be made by NGZ.  I have one of their diecast Mercedes sedans in 1/35 scale, intended for a modern Middle Eastern diorama.  The chassis is even stamped "1/35 scale."

Then finally, a few years ago, Diopark released a plastic 1/35 Mercedes W123 sedan (though they didn't call it a Mercedes on the box, but a "German Made Civilian Car").  Just for fun, I compared the NGZ to the Diopark kit. They are about the same size in all dimensions, wheel size, etc. 

[Brian Austin]

21 hours ago, peteski said:

Yes, model railroads have their own scale problems. But it is a scale, not gauge problem. N gauge is always 9mm but it can be used for several scales (like 1:148, 1:150 and 1:160). Same with G-gauge track -it can be used fo several scale models

Then there are "box scales". In the '60s kit manufacturers were using standardized size boxes. So they made models (usually aircraft or ships) to fit the standard-size box.  That resulted in all sorts of odd scales.  Then there are  Matchbox diecasts: those were also scaled to fit in the standard-size box, resulting in a wide range of vehicle scales being used.

In model railroading scales can vary due to different issues.   Even HO and 0 Scales have their variations.   Sometimes there's just the convenience of a round number, such as American 0 Scale's easy 1/4th inch-to-the-foot 1:48 vs. British 7mm-to-the-foot 1:43 or Eurpopean 1:45.).  On other occasions a scale is fudged in order to fit the then-available motors and axle drives inside the model body shells.  British N scale is oversize due to this issue.  Japanese models tend to be overscale too, but because their trains (excepting for the standard-gauge bullet trains) run on narrow-gauge track.  The British H0/00 thing was mentioned earlier.  This was also due to space considerations, to allow the dainty British locos to run on H0 gauge track the scale increased a bit, and as major manufacturers jumped in the compromise stuck.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OO_gauge.

I should point out that at the very start, when German toy manufacturer Marklin instituted a range of gauges in the early 1900s or so, they cataloged each gauge with a number, #0-5, ranging smaller-to-larger like artists' paintbrushes.  0 then should be read as the number zero, not a letter.  H0 is literally half of 0, and was introduced many years later.  Gauge #1 was the next largest after 0 in Marklin's lineup, and in later decades became the foundation of the garden railroad mess..."i.e. G Gauge". 

It should be noted that actual scale for toy trains was never a consideration at the start, these were just toys.  I happen to have a clockwork 0 Marklin set from around 1902 or so, and it even came with an original paper catalog, which must be fairly rare these days.  Proportions are "cute" rather than "correct" to say the least!  Scale accuracy didn't begin to matter until the '20s or '30s or so.  By then gauge standards were forming, with new ones arriving.  New scales wound up with letter designations due to marketing forces, straying away from Marklin's old neat and tidy cataloging system.

[Daddyfink]

21 hours ago, Casey said:

It's definitely odd considering the kits you grew up building and mentioned having interest in on this forum, but the subject is very unique, so maybe outside the realm of most people's interests. I want to say the BBC ebgine was nicely done, and definitely better detailed than the generic BBC in MPC's 1/20 Popcorn Wagon, etc., but there were a lot of one-off race car parts which couldn't be used on a street car (four spoke, four-lug wheels for one), so not even as useful for parts swapping as the Popcorn Wagon, Ford vans, Corvettes, etc.

 

Why odd? I build just about anything and have for years. From Spanish Galleons to the Revell Drag kits, I built anything I could get my hands on when I was a kid. I always saw this kit here and there, but for some reason, I do not have one. And given that I like large scale kits, this is something I must correct. 

 

[highway]

3 hours ago, Brian Austin said:

In model railroading scales can vary due to different issues.   Even HO and 0 Scales have their variations.  

It's just not with "O" and "HO" scale, but "G" scale could be the one with the largest variation because I have seen it listed all the way from 1/22.5th scale all the way to 1/32nd scale. Even though it all runs on the same track, just look under the "Global Manufacturers and their scale product sizes" section of this from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_scale