Body work ... expert help needed, please!

[ismaelg]

I have never used Evercoat, but it could be the putty is not fully cured or dry.

Before primer, do you feel the transition with your finger? If it shows in the primer it will show in the paint.

Maybe you can try sanding with finer grain sandpaper until the transtion can not be felt.

I use Milliput fine grain putty and it feathers very nicely. I use either Plastikote or Moon mud primer.

I don't know if this helps much, but I hope so.

Thanks,

[Zoom Zoom]

If everything is smooth before you paint, I suspect it's the paint that is overpowering your primer and causing ghosting. You need to use a sealer to avoid it. Most automotive paints, even Tamiya lacquers, will cause ghosting if the body has had a strong layer of automotive paint or primer applied-once the damage is done, it keeps happening over and over and that's when even Tamiya spray will cause you headaches. Mold lines that you sand away carefully, areas that you fill, details you sand away, all reappear faintly because the solvents in the paint are leeching through and into the plastic, causing it to swell. This problem can drive you crazy. You must use a sealer or primer that blocks the solvents. I had more trouble w/Black Gold clear than I could ever imagine, before I began cutting it with Mr. Color thinner. I'd get the primer smooth, apply the color, looked great, and then when I clearcoated it would blush and cause all the bodywork to magically reappear.

Zinsser BIN shellac-based primer/sealer used over a light application of automotive primer should block the solvents and be a sufficient sealer. Dupont Variprime also works if you follow the directions to the T; it must be thoroughly mixed and dried the proper amount of time and you must use a respirator. BIN is much safer, cheaper, and available everywhere. Get a can of it (not a spray can), and mix it thoroughly, cut it w/a bit of alcohol, and it sprays nicely, sands just as powdery as the automotive stuff. It's a white primer. It saved me the problem of Tamiya white primer turning pink on a vintage Monogram kit, and blocked the ghosting of a couple areas that I used filler.

Cobra Colors primers seem to avoid ghosting, especially the VX primer which looks a lot like Variprime, but it's not great at covering. Moon Mud covers better. For the low cost of a quart of Zinsser, I think that's the easiest to use w/an airbrush. If you must use a spray can, avoid automotive products or get MCW's primers/sealers in spray cans.

[Zoom Zoom]

A quart is somewhere between 8 and 13 bucks, can't really remember, but it's enough to last an eternity :wink: Maybe you'll be lucky to find a pint sized can of it. Again, mix the living **** out of it, it settles out.

Home Depot/Lowes have it. I'm sure it's available other places. I'm pretty sure I used 91% alcohol to cut it, I think denatured alcohol will work as well. It's pretty mild stuff, a lot less toxic than enamels and lacquers. But it sure does the job.

Avoid the spray cans, unless you want to transfer it. The nozzles are awful, it sprays way too much and way too splattery for a model car.

[jbwelda]

do you sand the primer and paint between each coat? i do and i rarely see ghosts from body work. then again i dont do full customs or radical restyling so maybe thats why i dont experience the problem your seeing. as ismael said, it has to be smooth to the touch to be smooth to the eyes and thats where i generally have problems...i typically leave too much putty on the first couple passes of primer but between nearly polishing the primer between each coat and smoothing the ghosts that appear early on in the process i generally end up with smooth body panels.

it also seems to me that polishing the primer makes it harder and that may well serve as a sealer to prevent later ghosting. thats a totally unscientific opinion though.

[Zoom Zoom]

I always wetsand (micromesh usually, 2400-3600 depending on what I'm sanding, and how smooth it is) between coats. I sand my primer and my color coats, except any final color coat that's a metallic or pearl. I also usually sand between clearcoats (I generally spray 1-2 primer sessions, two color sessions and two clear sessions). The smoother the base, the smoother the end result. It's nice when I don't need primer and use Tamiya sprays, then I can generally get away w/minimal wetsanding between coats and no wetsanding of the final clear, just elbow grease and liquid compound and I get a mirror finish. Darker colors I'll always put more time/effort into the final wetsand/polish.

Steve, thanks for the heads-up on the Zinsser quart cans. It hasn't rusted yet, and I do have a spray can of it (used on a 1:1 chair restoration where it worked just fine as a primer). I don't need a sealer often, but there are times it's mandatory.

[jbwelda]

yes bob that part about not sanding the final metallic or pearl coat took me a while to figure out. a friend of mine who paints customs for a living is the one who hepped me to that...sanding the metallic or even worse the pearl just totally kills the lustre and effect, making pearl look like crappy metallic and making metallic just look grainy. instead i shoot some clear over the final metallic/pearl (or clear pearl as with my latest attempt at a custom finish) and then wet sand and eventually polish the clear hopefully never burning down into the color and/or pearl.

one of the things i got back into modelling over was to see if i could actually create decent paint finishes. it was a revelation to find a polishing kit and even more to figure out the sanding between coats, even primer, part. now i gotta learn to use an airbrush though tamiyas paints are so nice i find im not even motivated to head for the airbrush now.

[Zoom Zoom]

I stopped by a local hardware store at lunch and found a product called Zinzer Bulls-Eye Universal Sanding Sealer. Is this what I need?

I have no idea if that will work; Zinsser B-I-N shellac based primer/sealer is what I've used.

http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=10

[MrObsessive]

Here's a tip I learned from Ted "Chopper" Lear................

When needing to get rid of scripts, deep parting lines and even when doing bodywork when blending plastic surfaces together------Sand down the part as you normally would, then brush over the part with Ambroid Pro Weld. (Liquid Glue)

The Ambroid will then cause the sanded area to "ghost"...........once this is thoroughly dry, sand this area again and repeat. The area shouldn't ghost again because you've sanded away the "memory" the plastic had when you brushed over the area with the Ambroid.

Since liquid glue is a very powerful solvent, when you go to paint as you normally would, the paint solvents shouldn't cause the ghosting problem.

You can always prime the body with the BIN as extra insurance, but I've found that what I've described wards against any surprises down the road.

Hope this helps ya out Ken!

[Zoom Zoom]

Bill, thanks! That definitely sounds like something I'll try.

Let me get it straight, that is to apply Ambroid and sand the area smooth twice before priming?

Also, if color bleed is an issue obviously a sealer will still have to be used.

[Darin Bastedo]

I may be cetifiably nutz but the only filler I ever use is Medium Super Glue. It dries hard, blends right in never shrinks, and I've never had a ghost line in my paint.

here are some examples...

This one obviously has had some work done...

The side pipe holes were filled with JUST super glue on this one. I backed it with scotch tape, filled in th ehole, hit it with accellerator and sanded smooth. done in 10 minutes ready to paint. The model is almost a year built and still no signs of ghosting. Painted with laquer...

same thing with the spoiler on this Vette...no ghosting a year later.

[MrObsessive]

Bill, thanks! That definitely sounds like something I'll try.

Let me get it straight, that is to apply Ambroid and sand the area smooth twice before priming?

Also, if color bleed is an issue obviously a sealer will still have to be used.

That's what I do Bob..........The second application may not be necessary, but it's just to check to make sure the area will not ghost again.

And yes, like you said a sealer will still be needed to keep that nasty yellow or red plastic from bleeding through. For those out there that can't find BIN..............another alternative to try is to use Future Floor Wax.

It definitely stops bleed through and may work on ghosting problems too.

[Zoom Zoom]

Thanks Bill, I'll also have to try the Future trick. I let the Future thicken up a bit before spraying, it goes on so watery.

[Zoom Zoom]

Well, I finally located Zinsser BIN last night ... haven't used it yet, but I did do a little experment that convinced me it CAN be used straight from the spray can by simply swapping spray nozzles. I tried one of the white ones from can of Testors lacquer and it sprayed just fine.

I almost fell out out of my chair when you said that Testors actually had a better spray nozzle than Zinsser! I honestly thought one could not get a more useless nozzle than one supplied w/a can of Testors.

Learn something new every day :wink:

Good luck w/it! Those Testors lacquer nozzles can be messy, I've been using some this week to transfer some of the lacquer to an airbrush, I ended up using a small donut of fun-tack to attach a section of drinking straw to the Testors nozzle; sure makes transferring the paint much, much cleaner and easier. I cut the straw into a 2" section.

[jbwelda]

ive always had very good luck with testors nozzles too, at least until they clog up which sometimes happens the third or fourth use of the can despite clearing it by the time honored tradition of inverting the can and spraying until clear (air blowing out).

tamiya as usual puts them to shame though.

keep in mind i never mastered an airbrush so my options are limited.

[Zoom Zoom]

Testors nozzles hate me. I really wish I could slap a Tamiya nozzle on a Testors can, but ain't gonna happen.

Testors lacquer sprays way differently than Tamiya; when transfering it it's obvious it's a bit thicker and foamier. It settles down w/a little thinner (Mr. Color Thinner) and airbrushes like a dream. Testors lacquer does have much denser pigment than Tamiya, or Testors enamel. I'm still painting a Big Bad Blue AMX that nearly was ruined by the first nozzle that splattered all over the AMX. My latest problem was with their clearcoat (airbrushed) it acted strange and isn't smooth. Perhaps it's the lacquer thinner I used... :roll:

[ismaelg]

Consistent results. That's why I gave up with spray cans years ago. The only times I use spray cans are with Plastikote T235 primer, which I use as a quick coarse general purpose primer, and I always have a can of hardware store flat black enamel for chassis tops, inside bodies etc. Other than that, I airbrush everything else. I tried once transferring from a spray can to a bottle, but it was a massive or should I say MESSive failure :oops:

Thanks,

[Billy Kingsley]

I also stand by the MML Clear. I don't even own a can of Tamiya clear anymore, at least, not a full one.

I still beieve the MML Is the best paint available to the general hobbiest.

[Zoom Zoom]

I've become quite the fan of the Testors lacquer clearcoat ... it's about the only kind I use anymore. I give it the edge over Tamiya for a couple of reasons ... No. 1, it's shinier, and No. 2, it seems to have better self-leveling properties. There have been a couple of times where I had what appeared to be really bad runs in my clear coats that I thought sure were going to cause me to have to strip and re-paint. But, the clear leveled out beautifully and the places completely disappeared after a bit of drying time.

I prefer Tamiya clear; the MML clear goes on nice, but will blush-I've never had that happen w/Tamiya. I simply have better and more consistent results w/Tamiya spray cans. If the MM clear didn't blush I'd like it better-once they're dry they both look the same to me, and both buff out nicely. Funny how some prefer one brand over another, with my style of painting Tamiya sprays are far more precise and far less trouble-prone. I get about 100% good results w/Tamiya, my success rate w/MML is about 50% before resorting to airbrushing the stuff.

[MrObsessive]

Testors spray paints and their nozzles are what caused me to switch to airbrushing back in 1985! I had never seen paint spray out of a can so inconsistently as their stuff! :x :shock:

The only time I will spray paint anything is when I do a curbside chassis (Modelhaus) when there is no chassis detailing to do----------airbrushing is not hard, just takes some practice to get it right.

Getting back to the BIN stuff............I have a pint can of it------could not find anywhere the spray can of it. Will plain isopropyl alcohol thin it down, or should it say 91% on the bottle?

I'm wondering if denatured alcohol will work since I can get that directly at the hardware store.

[Zoom Zoom]

Bill, I think that either denatured or 91% alcohol will work fine. I can't remember what I used when I airbrushed it on my 924 just a few months ago, I suspect it was 91% rubbing alcohol. Mix that stuff up thoroughly; the stuff that's settled at the bottom is really thick. I didn't even know if it was available in a pint can; all I've seen are quarts, gallons, and large spray cans when I've seen it at Home Depot/Lowes. I have one of those awesome "has-everything-you-can-imagine" hardware stores in town, I'll have to see if they have B-I-N in smaller cans. They also have Pacer superglues, K&N brass, Evergreen, balsa/basswood...great hardware store

[jbwelda]

i learned to use MM enamels pretty well but its difficult getting over the huge amount that comes out of those cans. have only tried the laquers once but like them...however i dropped back to tamiya for the clear coat, coats actually: one pearl clear and then regular clear over that.

but tamiya really puts anything testors puts out back on the shelf. i just fell in love with the tamiya buzz cans because they dont just puke out paint, it comes out smoothly and evenly and lays flat and dries fast and polishes well! MM has more colors but the race is getting close in that regard too.

i will post some results soon as i just got through polishing the toyota mr-s ive been working on...its two tone grabber orange over daytona yellow (MM laquers) then the tamiya clear scheme explained above. of course after i painted it i decided to relieve the louvers from underneath so you could see through them...bad idea...so now ive had to go into "try to save it" mode and of course i should have a) left it alone or got the bright idea to do that BEFORE i painted the thing!

but im afraid patience and planning has rarely been my strong suit.

[MrObsessive]

Whoops!

Sorry 'bout that...........it is the quart can I have!

I was thinking about the paint cans I get from the local shop that are the pints. It would be nice though if BIN came in a smaller size since the spray cans are hard to find where I am.

Probably another hardware store in the area does have the sprays............but I hate shopping and traipsing all over creation for one small item. I also hate calling about something.............might as well speak Turkish to them as a lot of clerks have no clue what I'm talking about. :?

[Zoom Zoom]

Guess I'm so used to living in a city that there's a Home Depot or Lowes always close by. It's far easier to find a spray can of B-I-N around here than to find a decent hobby shop :roll: :cry:

Funny that I had the spray can of B-I-N before using it on models, recommended by one of my best friends for doing primer work on an old wooden chair that I was refinishing. He raved about it, because of it's fast build/quick dry/smooth sanding and much easier on the olfactory senses than Kilz.