Flat black vs Flat black primer, any difference?

[Speedfreak]

If your using the same brand/type of paint, is there a difference between Flat black and Flat black primer?

[Casey]

Yes

[Speedfreak]

1 hour ago, Casey said:

Yes

And what might that be? 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Speedfreak
Reason

[StevenGuthmiller]

If you're using just regular flat black as primer, yes, there is a difference.

If you're using black primer just as a basic flat black finish, no there is not.

 

I won't pretend to be a chemical engineer and give you all of the technical data on the properties of primer, but let's just say that it is designed to create a suitable surface for the paint to adhere to.

Flat black paint is a finish.

If you're using a simple hobby enamel paint system, you can use virtually anything as a primer.

If you're using something like automotive lacquer, I wouldn't even try a generic flat black paint for a primer.

It's a recipe for disaster.

 

 

Steve

[Speedfreak]

Thanks Steven, I'm really looking for the chemical difference, if there in fact is any. Just curious.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Speedfreak

[Dave G.]

Flat black paint is not primer . Primer has different properties, it is made to adhere to surface materials and it's made to be bonded to with top coats. In the case of 1/1 painting, primers generally are not very good at weather protecting, thus why you may have seen in your time someone priming a bare metal section of car and driving around that way to have rust coming through the surface in due time. Primer is porous and paint is a protection from weather.

In models flat black paint won't take the place of primer. However if you paint something flat black by using primer then obviously weather is generally not going to be an issue. Primer may mar a bit easier than top coat though, it doesn't form the hard shell of top coat paints. I use Stynylrez primers in my modeling. I've done scratch testing of top coats painted directly to plastic vs over Stynylrez primer first. In all cases ( lacquer nail polish, enamel, acrylic model paints, acrylic craft paints, acrylic artist paints) paints were harder to scratch with a sharp fingernail with the primer under them. Of those paints I listed the Liquitex artist soft body acrylics stuck best to plastic with no primer but wore away easy. even then though it was all the better bond with primed surfaces. Some paints like Model Master acrylic for instance just flaked off with no primer. But even Model Master enamels scratched easier with no primer than with primer.  Stynylrez is made to be a base that bonds to plastic and be a base coat for your top coat. Top coats are just that, top coats.

All that said, recently I primed an entire car kit with black Stynylrez. Turned out the kind of dark charcoal or there abouts of that primer was just the look I wanted for the frame and under pinnings of the car so I just left it that way. Time will be the test of if I should have mat clear coated or not. It's too late now the car is finished lol !

Edited October 20, 2019 by Dave G.

[djflyer]

7 hours ago, Dave G. said:

Flat black paint is not primer . Primer has different properties, it is made to adhere to surface materials and it's made to be bonded to with top coats. In the case of 1/1 painting, primers generally are not very good at weather protecting, thus why you may have seen in your time someone priming a bare metal section of car and driving around that way to have rust coming through the surface in due time. Primer is porous and paint is a protection from weather.

In models flat black paint won't take the place of primer. However if you paint something flat black by using primer then obviously weather is generally not going to be an issue. Primer may mar a bit easier than top coat though, it doesn't form the hard shell of top coat paints. I use Stynylrez primers in my modeling. I've done scratch testing of top coats painted directly to plastic vs over Stynylrez primer first. In all cases ( lacquer nail polish, enamel, acrylic model paints, acrylic craft paints, acrylic artist paints) paints were harder to scratch with a sharp fingernail with the primer under them. Of those paints I listed the Liquitex artist soft body acrylics stuck best to plastic with no primer but wore away easy. even then though it was all the better bond with primed surfaces. Some paints like Model Master acrylic for instance just flaked off with no primer. But even Model Master enamels scratched easier with no primer than with primer.  Stynylrez is made to be a base that bonds to plastic and be a base coat for your top coat. Top coats are just that, top coats.

All that said, recently I primed an entire car kit with black Stynylrez. Turned out the kind of dark charcoal or there abouts of that primer was just the look I wanted for the frame and under pinnings of the car so I just left it that way. Time will be the test of if I should have mat clear coated or not. It's too late now the car is finished lol !

Dave - I have just started using Stynylrez primer and so far really like it.  Am curious if you found any compatibility issues with any type of paints - it sounds as if you tried most all kinds.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Just an FYI that's sorta on-topic...one of my go-to primers as well as being a super dooper flat black is SEM self-etching black.

IF you get lucky and it doesn't craze the plastic you're working with, it flows out as smooth as a baby's backside, with no orange peel. It sticks like the dickens, and is usually totally impervious to any topcoat.

As a final finish (if you're going for the primered look and can't sand and polish a peely finish), because it flows out so smooth, it's perfect.

BUT YOU NEED TO TEST IT ON PLASTIC AS WELL AS OVER ANY OTHER MATERIAL BEFORE USING IT ON A MODEL.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Ace-Garageguy

[Dave G.]

22 hours ago, djflyer said:

Dave - I have just started using Stynylrez primer and so far really like it.  Am curious if you found any compatibility issues with any type of paints - it sounds as if you tried most all kinds.

The one and only time it lifted on me in many test shoots was with LA Colors lacquer thinned with straight xylene. Never done it before or since. But I generally don't use straight xylene and cut the paint 50/50 with it. That was LA Colors lacquer nail polish. Since then I've shot the same paint over Stynylrez thinned with lacquer thinner and xylene blended, paint cut 50/50 with no issue. In fact I did all the black parts on a 1/16 scale Mercer raceabout with that same paint over Stynylrez, no problem.

I have not shot auto lacquers over it though, not even Duplicolor. Nail polishes have been fine but that one incident.

I really like the primer, been using it for two years now.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Dave G.

[djflyer]

5 minutes ago, Dave G. said:

The one and only time it lifted on me in many test shoots was with California Colors lacquer thinned with straight xylene. Never done it before or since. But I generally don't use straight xylene and cut the paint 50/50 with it. That was California Colors lacquer nail polish. Since then I've shot the same paint over Stynylrez thinned with lacquer thinner and xylene blended, paint cut 50/50 with no issue. In fact I did all the black parts on a 1/16 scale Mercer raceabout with that same paint over Stynylrez, no problem.

I have not shot auto lacquers over it though, not even Duplicolor. Nail polishes have been fine but that one incident.

I really like the primer, been using it for two years now.

I see they brought out a silver primer in addition to the other colors. I was thinking that would be a good base for some lighter, more transparent colors (yellows, etc.)  Have you tired any of the other primer colors?

 

[Dave G.]

1 hour ago, djflyer said:

I see they brought out a silver primer in addition to the other colors. I was thinking that would be a good base for some lighter, more transparent colors (yellows, etc.)  Have you tired any of the other primer colors?

 

I only keep white and black. Between those I make what ever shade of gray I want, assuming I want grey.. Have not tried other colors but I have tinted the white with a little acrylic artist paints. Then thin slightly with isopropyl. When I want metallic base coat for translucent colors I use metallic paint over the Stynylrez, often that's craft paint . Works for me, so do metalizer paints. Just sayin.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Dave G.