Tell me about Flex-Fuel

[James2]

I recently acquired a 2010 F150 XLT (Flex Fuel rated) The yellow ring on the filler and the badge signifies this also.

1. Can you mix regular gas and flex or do you have tuse one or the other?

2. What about performance?

3. I read that F-F gets less mileage due to lower combustion. And if doesn't that defeat the idea!

4. I'm sticking with the regular for now 

[Dave Van]

My F-150 will run on pure gas all the way to 100% methanol. But no one sells it in my region.  My son has used it, he's in KY. MPG goes down because it does not have the BTU's gasoline has. Also you may need to put your foot in it to get the same power.....making MPG even lower. 

But if the methanol is cheap enough it may work for you.  

[James2]

16 minutes ago, Dave Van said:

My F-150 will run on pure gas all the way to 100% methanol. But no one sells it in my region.  My son has used it, he's in KY. MPG goes down because it does not have the BTU's gasoline has. Also you may need to put your foot in it to get the same power.....making MPG even lower. 

But if the methanol is cheap enough it may work for you.  

It was less than $2.00 a gal today. Most of my driving is Highway so I wonder if that helps?

[Dave Van]

Give it a try. My manual says get as close to empty for first tank. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

I remember driving a flex fuel Chevy when I was working as a driver for a grocery store chain.

It was getting a mixture of regular and E-85 fuel depending on who was driving it.

At one point, I was told by my superiors to use only regular fuel.

going back and forth between the two was apparently causing maintenance issues.

I don't know what those "issues" were, and that was some years ago, but I have since heard that mixing the two is not a good idea.

Supposedly, you should pick one and stick with it.

 

But I am no authority on these cars.

I've never owned one, and don't really have any plans to.

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Dave Van said:

My F-150 will run on pure gas all the way to 100% methanol...

...But if the methanol is cheap enough it may work for you.  

I believe you mean ethanol. They're both alcohols, but have some significant differences.

Most alcohol-gasoline blends for public consumption use ethanol, not methanol. 

E-10, E-15, and E-85 refer to the percentage of ethanol in the blend.

If the fuel system is correctly designed, the vehicle "knows" exactly what fuel is in the injector rail at any given time, and adjusts operating parameters to best advantage.

Mixing any available gasoline-based fuel should cause no problem whatsoever...again, assuming correct design and function.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Ace-Garageguy

[Dave Van]

You are correct.....not having it in our region I mix up the fuels you can use. Thanks

[Ace-Garageguy]

In many ways, the ethanol craze was a giant knee-jerk boondoggle, based largely on ignorance and feel-good environmental policies that were fueled by faulty logic.

One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. Put another way, about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu.Mar 6, 2009

https://www.organicconsumers.org/scientific/70-percent-more-energy-required-make-ethanol-actually-ethanol-cornell

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, James2 said:

It was less than $2.00 a gal today. Most of my driving is Highway so I wonder if that helps?

You're not going to get the same mileage or power from E85 as you'll get from gasoline, no matter how you drive.

Yeah, it'll cost less to fill the tank, but you won't go as far on E85.

If it's cheap enough, it might cost less over time to burn more fuel to go a shorter distance.

You'll need to keep your own records and do the math to know for sure.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Ace-Garageguy

[Bills72sj]

Ethanol has less energy per gallon than gasoline. (Gasoline has less energy per gallon than diesel.)

It takes more energy to CREATE ethanol than it gives back when burned. (So much for saving the planet, Al Gore)

Ethanol is only cheaper than gasoline because it is heavily subsidized by the government. It also raises the price of corn products due to the artificial demand.

It utilizes productive farmland to produce fuel rather than food.

Ethanol eats natural rubber products and corrodes aluminum. Thus, car manufacturers had to change materials used in cars to prevent the deteriorating effects.

From a HIGH performance perspective, E85 can make big power comparable to racing gasoline at a lower cost. However this is not applicable in normal passenger vehicles.

When ethanol was first introduced to the driving public, it caused problems with the alcohol dissolving varnish build up in older vehicles resulting in clogged fuels systems. However, this issue is no longer prevalent.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[espo]

About the only fuel you can buy in this area is E-10. Most cars that aren't designated as a Flex- Fuel user will run well and the driver will not notice any difference, until they get a tank of good old fashion E-0. Example, A few years ago we had a '10 Dodge Charger RT with AWD. We took a little vacation with another couple to Northern Michigan, Travers City. A must visit by the way. Leaving our area on E-10 and skipping buying any gas in Iowa. Sorry but I made that mistake with another car on another trip, and even using their so called premium grade the 3.8 Grand Prix sounded like their were rocks rolling around in the engine. We stopped some where in the Illinois just before going into Michigan and filled the Dodge with what we found out had zero ethanol. The immediate difference in power was far more than you would expect and a 2 -3 MPG increase was not hard to deal with either. On our return heading home we filled up again with the Illinois gas and the same thing again. I have experience similar performance gains with different cars under similar conditions. My '05 GTO had a warning in the owners manual to not use Ethanol Fuels at any time. They stated that it would cause engine damage. I was stuck with E10 and I didn't experience any problems. We're forced to buy what ever fuel our local Governments dictate for what ever reason they see fit, 

[Dave Van]

Ethanol boils down govt support for corn prices. As stated above it's a negative o a energy index.  

[Joe Handley]

My 200 is flex fuel and I’ve run it for nearly 100k on the stuff, pretty much ran it from the time it was over about 1k miles on the fuel. Not sure about the engines Ford had designated as flex fuel in 2010, but the Pentastar V-6 in my 200 as well as the new Coyote engines run better on E85 than they do on pump gas, which comes down to tuning, either from the manufacturer or if you can have a tune done for power. For the typical driving I do, there’s about a 2mpg difference in mileage between E85 and pump 93 octane, with a noticeable drop off in performance and considerable increase in cost to running 93 then with less difference in price vs 87, that can be a wash at times, though I do lose more performance on 87 vs E85 than I do running 93 vs E85. I’ve also read of the Coyote equipped F-Series trucks getting better mileage at elevated interstate speeds and happened to be talking with a Yukon owner one morning who found that it’s engine (one of the bigger truck LS engines) was supposed to be able to burn 87, but would knock under load, problem went away with E85 and 93, but she either lost a little mileage on E85 or spent way more for 93 than she did on E85 or 87, coming out behind on overall operating costs running 93. Another thing I’ve noticed over the past 8 years of ownership, the tailpipes stay cleaner, enough so that you can still see the welds from where the metal was welded into the final tube shape before being bent into the shape they’re currently in on the factory installed exhaust!
 

 When it comes to many of the “cost to make”, “fisability, or “only worth it because of subsidies” excuses, keep in mind some of what you guys are saying come from the petroleum industry’s lobbyist group. If you want to talk subsidies, oil is more heavily subsidized that wind, solar, and biofuel combined, especially when our military is used to protect oil supplies abroad.......don’t need to do that in Iowa. If you want to talk costs of production, there is no drilling in inhospitable areas to increase costs (both of the environmental AND geopolitical kind),  conversion from plant to fuel isn’t much different than to cleaners, disinfectants, or alcoholic beverages, then what doesn’t get used there becomes livestock feed, both wet and dried plus is less toxic that refining oil. 

[MrObsessive]

My Challenger was made to run on "Flex Fuel", but frankly, I don't like to put anything less than 89 Octane in it. The 87 stuff of course makes the car stumble whereas the 89 and especially the 93 it runs MUCH better. Yes, it costs more ($3.35 per gallon for 93 here), but I can't stand a bad running car so the extra cost is worth it.

[peteski]

1 hour ago, MrObsessive said:

My Challenger was made to run on "Flex Fuel", but frankly, I don't like to put anything less than 89 Octane in it. The 87 stuff of course makes the car stumble whereas the 89 and especially the 93 it runs MUCH better. Yes, it costs more ($3.35 per gallon for 93 here), but I can't stand a bad running car so the extra cost is worth it.

AFAIK, octane rating and the percentage of ethanol in the gasoline are unrelated.

[1930fordpickup]

6 hours ago, Bills72sj said:

Ethanol is only cheaper than gasoline because it is heavily subsidized by the government. It also raises the price of corn products due to the artificial demand.

It utilizes productive farmland to produce fuel rather than food.

I agree with except, corn used in the Ethanol is not a complete waste as it can and is used in feed for pigs and cattle. Not a complete waste of land use. 

[Joe Handley]

6 hours ago, MrObsessive said:

My Challenger was made to run on "Flex Fuel", but frankly, I don't like to put anything less than 89 Octane in it. The 87 stuff of course makes the car stumble whereas the 89 and especially the 93 it runs MUCH better. Yes, it costs more ($3.35 per gallon for 93 here), but I can't stand a bad running car so the extra cost is worth it.

E85 is supposed to be 85% ethanol and 15 gasoline, but can range from 51/49 (which it would likely be closer to in our respective states right now) to 83/17 (usually a summer only blend for us) and can be upwards of 105 octane with the summer blends and probably closer to the 93-97 octane rating right now. While you would lose mileage, if you area is priced much like the my local stations are, you're looking at $1.00-$1.10 per gallon savings in cost without enough difference in mileage to make that up by the time you need to refill. You also have the same engine I do, but with the hotter factory tune (283hp vs 305hp), and if your computer is programed to run the stuff like mine is, you would see a further bump in performance on E85 over 93 as well.

[Ace-Garageguy]

8 hours ago, peteski said:

AFAIK, octane rating and the percentage of ethanol in the gasoline are unrelated.

Straight ethanol has an equivalent octane rating of 109. Therefore, the percentage of ethanol mixed with gasoline can have a significant effect on the resultant octane rating of the blend.

But, because ethanol has less energy than an equivalent volume of gasoline, as added-ethanol-induced octane in a blend goes up, power and mileage generally come down.

As Joe mentioned, tuning can compensate for some of this.

Because of ethanol's higher effective octane rating, an engine running on it can tolerate both more compression and more ignition advance, both ways to increase power...to a point...and the reason why an engine optimized for running ethanol may tend to knock on fuels with a higher gasoline content.

For what it's worth, I worked as a greasy-hands consultant with a well known university on a pilot ethanol project back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and ran my personal Triumph GT6 on a variety of "gasohol" blends and ethanol fuels of various proofs.

EDIT: Because of the design of the little car's SU carbs, it was quite easy to rough-tune them for different fuels by simply raising or lowering the needles in the pistons. Exhaust gas analysis would tell us where we were, mixture wise, when we'd established a decent running tune through trial and error. Then we'd machine new needles to deliver a modified fuel delivery curve, based on the previously altered positions of the needles. SU carbs vary the amount of fuel delivered based on manifold vacuum, a function of engine load and speed. We'd install 'em, and test more. Changing ignition timing is a simple matter of twisting the distributor, and changing the advance curve only requires substitution of springs, weights, and vacuum canister valving. The cylinder head comes off the GT6 engine in no-time-flat too, and juggling compression ratios with annealed copper head gaskets of various thicknesses was a cinch. A couple of days of tinkering like this could establish a workably accurate...and repeatable...tune for any blend.

Actual science.

EDIT: Suitably tuned, little car would run happily on Bacardi 151, and the exhaust smelled great.

The one overriding problem on that series of tests was the reluctance of the engine to start on close-to-pure ethanol in cold weather, because of alcohol's vaporization characteristics, and a point-type ignition system (replaced with an electronic "multi-strike" system later on).

With today's fuel injection nozzles delivering a nicely atomized mist, and very high-energy ignition systems, it's no longer an issue.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Ace-Garageguy

[Joe Handley]

One big advantage the Pentastar and Coyote both have is that they're both VVT, so the computer can adjust cam timing as well as ignition. Dad is pretty sure the 200 retards at least ignition timing and may adjust the cams to leave the valves open a bit longer to drop the effective compression (iirc, they're 10:1, not sure in other  flex fuel VVT engines) for 87, then gradually gets more aggressive as the fuel gets better. The Pentastars have a noticeable change in "attitude" when going between 87 octane E10 and summer blend E85 and just starting sound more aggressive, if not a bit angry when it gets more booze.   When I first started running E85, I couldn't figure out why the exhaust had this strange, familiar smell to it during cold starts. After a couple of days it finally hit me! Mom andcI both used to work for the local Jewel/Osco Drug store and the exhaust smelled a lot like the breath of liquer department customers who didn't didn't really need any more of what they were buying that night......I'm pretty sure the car could spectacularly fail a breathalizer if taken off the tail pipes, maybe even register on a portable machine at 20 paces?

[Ace-Garageguy]

25 minutes ago, Joe Handley said:

...When I first started running E85, I couldn't figure out why the exhaust had this strange, familiar smell to it during cold starts. After a couple of days it finally hit me! Mom andcI both used to work for the local Jewel/Osco Drug store and the exhaust smelled a lot like the breath of liquer department customers who didn't didn't really need any more of what they were buying that night......I'm pretty sure the car could spectacularly fail a breathalizer if taken off the tail pipes, maybe even register on a portable machine at 20 paces?

...Oshifer...honesht...ish not me thash been drinking; ish my car...

[SfanGoch]

Here's the proof (190)

[Ace-Garageguy]

A further note: the people involved in the project at the time were very well aware that the energy input required to distill fuel-grade alcohol would tend to make it non-competitive with petroleum based fuels available at the time. 

The primary focus of the project was, in reality, to develop simple and cost-effective SOLAR stills, to hold down distillation energy inputs normally required from other sources.

My involvement was in helping to determine how crappy a still could be and still produce something a car would run on, so I'd test low-grade alcohols and gasoline mixes.

So my statement about the cost of energy in as opposed to energy out is the result of direct real-world hands-on experience, and not mindless parroting of the petrothink alluded to above.

One result was a still made of plywood sheet and corrugated roof tin, with some PVC pipe, that could turn out 140 proof ethanol on the first pass, using fermented grass clippings as feedstock.

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Ace-Garageguy

[Joe Handley]

4 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

...Oshifer...honesht...ish not me thash been drinking; ish my car...

Eh, my 200 is a 283hp front drive Mopar, I'll just blame the torque steer?