Why these insanely overly complex cars will be junk when the dealers no longer maintain repair parts...

[Mark]

Agreed...reliability isn't in question, only manufacturers' efforts to make perfectly good, still serviceable products obsolete by not providing support or parts, and trying to prevent others from doing so.

[Casey]

2 hours ago, alexis said:

The one New Fangled Feature that I really like is the Rear View Camera

Those are horrible. People have quickly learned to rely upon them instead of turning their head both ways and looking behind both before and while backing up. I have seen it first hand driving with a 75+ year old (not that it's exclusive to older people, it's not...) and it scares me, frankly. Never once did she take her eyes of the dash screen once the shifter was put into reverse....not good. How do you spot someone outside the back up camera's view range if you never look?

Cars are easier than ever to repair, as they (mostly) self-diagnose, but you do need far more specialized tools to repair them. It's a trade off, but for the average vehicle user, it works. For hands-on folks who like to DIY, you are now in the minority, and will continue to be so.

Just to add-- I definitely prefer to DIY everything on my vehicles, but my most recent project (manual swap into my '11 TSX Sportwagon) required two visits from a locksmith to re-program the ECU, so I understand the frustration with having to rely on others, especially when specialized tools are required. Not a huge deal to me, really, but something to keep in mind when driving a newer vehicle compared to and older, less-electronic dependent vehicle-- both have their plusses and minuses.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Casey

[keyser]

Welcome to Wagon Mafia. ???

[sfhess]

11 hours ago, 1972coronet said:

Where I used to work (unnamed auto part store) , we finally got a pickup truck (2014). Of course, some "numbers guy" college kid ordered the fleet of these trucks: Silverado 1500, odour-trapping cloth seat, rubber mats (a good thing), AM/FM stereo, manual windows, cruise, tilt, A/C. 

Then elected to order the 4.3 litre V6... with the 4L60E... and 3.08 gear. 

What's wrong with that picture? Overdrive+3.08 gear behind an otherwise-great 262 cube V6. 

Thing couldn't get out of its own way! Desperately needed at least 4.10s, maybe even 4.56, gearing! 

Or, preferably, the small V8.

Horrible fuel economy -- in overdrive, it was running below idle speed!

Oh, did I mention the 500 metric tonnes lift-gate that was added post-facto? 

Total. Pig. 

But, hey, on paper that V6-overdrive-3.08 gear exhibited better fuel economy!

Bet it got good MPG numbers in the EPA lab.  

Years ago I had a 78 Zephyr with a 4-cylinder/4-speed.  A whopping 88 horsepower.  Poor engine had to work really hard to keep up with traffic and drive in real-world conditions.  I think I managed 20 MPG a couple of times on road trips.  Bet the EPA MPG figures were better than reality.  (I upgraded suspension and tires so it was fun to drive at least)

Edited February 22, 2022 by sfhess

[Rob Hall]

15 minutes ago, sfhess said:

Bet it got good MPG numbers in the EPA lab.  

Years ago I had a 78 Zephyr with a 4-cylinder/4-speed.  A whopping 88 horsepower.  Poor engine had to work really hard to keep up with traffic and drive in real-world conditions.  I think I managed 20 MPG a couple of times on road trips.  Bet the EPA MPG figures were better than reality.  (I upgraded suspension and tires so it was fun to drive at least)

Reminds me of my college Mustang...an '86 LX 2.3 w/ a 4cyl/4spd.  88 hp also IIRC.   At least it had more than the '84 diesel Escort I learned to drive in and drove in high school before that w/ 52 hp.  But the Escort was a 5spd and had great steering feel IIRC.   I do miss driving my '87 Mustang GT, though...it was a lot of fun w/ the 5.0 and 5spd. Hope to get it back on the road eventually.    None of those are anything I'd want as a daily, but fun to remember. 

[iamsuperdan]

16 hours ago, 89AKurt said:

"Old truck ... from the 90s." ? 

 

Yup. Trucks from the 90s are now 30 years old. In Canada, they can officially be registered as an antique/classic vehicle.

 

18 hours ago, Smoke Wagon said:

Which means the most blinding LED glare for everyone in the oncoming lane. 

Best headlights don't mean the brightest bulbs possible, nor does it necessarily mean switching to LED. It's more about the reflectors within the headlight unit, and finding something with better light dispersal. When possible, I've switched my vehicles to European headlights, as they have much better setups in their vehicles.

LED bulbs aren't great here anyway, as they don't generate as much heat, meaning snow buildup is a very real thing.

[keyser]

Good oem LEDs have proper beam, reflectors, and auto adjust. Add on or non standard Led/xenon’s stink. Those are the blinding glare ones. I drive a lot where there isn’t lighting. None. So headlights matter. Used to put Cibies in everything decades ago, like Dan said it’s reflector. I’d be dead now if it weren’t for great headlights. That and traction control for high powered cars. Rest of it is wants not needs. Clear user interface necessary too. BMWs are awful now, used to be amongst best. 50+#/wheels stink too. Just glad we have pretty good cars in garage. 

[Smoke Wagon]

39 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

Best headlights don't mean the brightest bulbs possible, nor does it necessarily mean switching to LED. It's more about the reflectors within the headlight unit, and finding something with better light dispersal.

The problem though is that almost every new vehicle on the road has LEDs. Halogen lamps are really only seen on base model vehicles or heavy equipment. And there’s a lot of folks these days who don’t know how to readjust their headlights, or are simply oblivious to that concept entirely. Example: stuff like lifted pickups with LED headlights still adjusted to a stock ride height kind of cancel out any thought an OEM put into engineering the headlamp housings for beams of light that are unobtrusive to other motorists.

[sfhess]

3 hours ago, Smoke Wagon said:

The problem though is that almost every new vehicle on the road has LEDs. Halogen lamps are really only seen on base model vehicles or heavy equipment. And there’s a lot of folks these days who don’t know how to readjust their headlights, or are simply oblivious to that concept entirely. Example: stuff like lifted pickups with LED headlights still adjusted to a stock ride height kind of cancel out any thought an OEM put into engineering the headlamp housings for beams of light that are unobtrusive to other motorists.

If you believe what people post on most online forums, headlights on most cars available today are totally inadequate.  But it's cool to tint the lenses.

My son put aftermarket LED headlights on his Chevy Colorado.  They're horrible.

On the other hand the Hella quartz halogen headlights in my 69 Cougar are incredible.

[BlackSheep214]

On 2/21/2022 at 12:29 PM, iamsuperdan said:

It's not just government mandate. It's also what people want.

Everyone now NEEDs their heated seats, vented seats, massaging seats, dual zone or three zone AC, heated steering wheel, remote starters, park sensors, rear cameras, 360 degree cameras, sunroof, keyless entry, push button start, bluetooth, satellite radio, LED headlights, power tailgates, self-levelling suspension, adaptive steering, touchscreens, navigation, rear dvd, power folding seats, etc, etc, etc.

A base model Corolla or Hyundai now comes with more equipment than base BMW or Mercedes models from not that long ago. Heated steering wheel & seats, remote start for example.

 

I work in the industry, and love most of these features. But I fear my truck being off warranty.  

Heated seats/steering wheel, vented seats, massaging seats, sunroofs, dual or three zone AC, and all those other goodies are options added to the sticker price. I don’t see a need for them, especially heated seats. Why? We all survived just find before they were added as an option. The biggest waste of $$$$ those are. Both my bro in law and sis in law have them on their CR-Vs and love them. I just shake my head....

Rear cameras, LED lights, keyless start, etc... are pretty much standard in newer cars. Satellite radio usually included and are offered 3 months free then you have the option to subscribe. New cars no longer have CD players - a big pet peeve of mine.

 

My Hyundai Kona SEL (when it ever comes in) has more features than my wife’s 2021 Honda CR-V.

Edited February 23, 2022 by BlackSheep214

[Smoke Wagon]

11 hours ago, BlackSheep214 said:

Grocery pick ups? The laziest service ever for those who don’t even want to get their own groceries

I agree. I wouldn’t trust other people pickin’ out my produce for me either. 

11 hours ago, BlackSheep214 said:

Chewy is fantastic and I don’t see why you say that’s a bad thing.

You’ve got a point here. I suppose it’s handy if you’re in an area where it’s real hard to find the brand of food for your pet. However, if you live in an area with multiple stores carrying your brand, and you’re an able-bodied adult, I think it’s sort of silly to have the mail man carry your pet’s food to the door for you.

11 hours ago, BlackSheep214 said:

I have a AAA membership and had it since I was in my 20s. Comes in handy if you need a tow. Why the bad rap on AAA? So what if they changed your tire. You do realize they call AAA certified tow companies, right? Women and older seniors value this service. 

You’ve got a point here too. However, I don’t recall seeing any women or older seniors in that commercial. I did see the portrayal of two full-grown men that are so inept at life that they both couldn’t figure out how to change the passenger side rear tire on a Ford Focus though.

[BlackSheep214]

As far as LED headlights goes.... God, I hate them. They’ll blind you in oncoming traffic. Makes you wonder if they’re switched to high. From the rear are even worse especially with full size trucks (I own a Ford Escape) at a traffic light. Their headlights sits high and you’ll get the full blast of ridiculously bright LED lights- even with night mode rear view mirrors. Side mirrors? Forget it. You’ll go blind there.?

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, sfhess said:

...On the other hand the Hella quartz halogen headlights in my 69 Cougar are incredible.

I've got old-school 7" round Hella quartz-halogens in the Spyder, and vintage 7" Marchal halogen driving lights (NOS race car stuff). 100 amp alternator, 10 gage wiring.

With everything lit, it's so bright the birds in the trees think it's dawn and start singing as I go by.   

EDIT: Snagged a pile of NOS Cibie and Lucas bulbs and housings last spring while cleaning out a friend's basement. Should have enough for at least one Jag and the 911.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[89AKurt]

11 hours ago, Erik Smith said:

Nice finish. How long did it take to imitate that patina? Hehe. On the serious side - how often do you get offers to sell that truck? Great photo. 

? I'm surprised, not that often.  But I don't live in the Rust Belt either.  My neighbor says to ask him first when I decide to.

[SfanGoch]

12 minutes ago, Smoke Wagon said:

I did see the portrayal of two full-grown men that are so inept at life that they both couldn’t figure out how to change the passenger side rear tire on a Ford Focus though.

My then 20 year old nephew's first car was a 1963 Biscayne. I borrowed it once to pick up some parts for my '86 Taurus Robo-Copmobile. On the way back from the Ford dealership, the engine temp was off the gauge. Luckily, there was a gas station on the next block. I took off the radiator cap and there was no steam coming out of the radiator. It was bone dry. I had to fill it with four gallons of antifreeze and water. I then decided to check the oil. There wasn't any. When I got back home, I told him about what happened. His paraphrased response was, "You're supposed to put stuff in the radiator and engine?"

[Rodent]

34 minutes ago, Smoke Wagon said:

You’ve got a point here too. However, I don’t recall seeing any women or older seniors in that commercial. I did see the portrayal of two full-grown men that are so inept at life that they both couldn’t figure out how to change the passenger side rear tire on a Ford Focus though.

Odd that this is a discussion about passenger side rear tire on a Focus. Shortly after we bought Focus #1, my spouse wound up getting a puncture in the RR tire. It looked like it was a screw in the shoulder that probably fell out while entering the freeway. TPMS alerted after it was too late. Got the "What should I do?" call, and my answer was to turn on the flashers and keep the seat belt on. The freeway service patrol will be along shortly and they will park their rollback behind you as a blockade and put on the spare for free. Yup, they stopped while we were still on the phone. Car was stopped next to a sound wall, so the "get thee behind the barrier" wasn't possible.

I don't have kids, but if I did, they would be smart enough to rotate their own tires at home in the garage, replace their brake pads, etc. but also be smart enough to call for help when they get a flat in a dark spot where they might be likely to be killed by an inattentive driver drifting to the right and hitting them at 50 mph. Also the inherent dangers of OEM jacks and "lug wrenches".

Edited February 23, 2022 by Rodent

[Ace-Garageguy]

14 minutes ago, SfanGoch said:

..."You're supposed to put stuff in the radiator and engine?"

I've seen that from time to time. Nice clean used Lexus Hippopotamus XSE daddy bought the little girl to drive to college. Engine starts rattling, warning lights on, she keeps driving.

BANG !!!

Edited February 23, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[deuces wild]

On 2/20/2022 at 3:06 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

Contrary to a lot of rebleated misinformation, manufacturers are not necessarily required to maintain stocks of parts for vehicles that are out of OEM warranty.  Many electronic modules and devices are simply not available from the aftermarket currently, and those that are are frequently of poor quality and don't last long. The car in this vid is going to have to go to a Jag dealer because of so many interrelated trouble codes, and due to the age of the thing, the owner may be SOL. I've seen the estimated cost of repairs on newer vehicles exceed the value of the vehicle by a significant margin.

EDIT: Those fancy "multi speed (8+)" automatic gearboxes are particularly expensive to replace, and many necessary repair parts are just not available anywhere.

This is a dose of reality for everybody who truly believes newer is automatically better.

Unfortunately, this is very typical of what we're seeing more and more frequently...and some manufacturers are adding additional layers to the computer interface so that independent shops can't even talk to them AT ALL.

 

 

 

I used to be a certified auto technician..... Never again!...????

[BlackSheep214]

1 hour ago, SfanGoch said:

My then 20 year old nephew's first car was a 1963 Biscayne. I borrowed it once to pick up some parts for my '86 Taurus Robo-Copmobile. On the way back from the Ford dealership, the engine temp was off the gauge. Luckily, there was a gas station on the next block. I took off the radiator cap and there was no steam coming out of the radiator. It was bone dry. I had to fill it with four gallons of antifreeze and water. I then decided to check the oil. There wasn't any. When I got back home, I told him about what happened. His paraphrased response was, "You're supposed to put stuff in the radiator and engine?"

Well..... you can’t fix stupid. Young kids nowadays don’t know diddly squat on car care. Thankfully my 18 year old son wants to know simple everyday car care - oil changes, check radiator/fluids, change tire, even as far as a desire to learn how to change brake pads on his car, etc....

[Reegs]

Heated seats. Didn't know the car had them. My buddy turned them on without telling me and I thought I had an accident.

[Rob Hall]

44 minutes ago, Reegs said:

Heated seats. Didn't know the car had them. My buddy turned them on without telling me and I thought I had an accident.

I love the heated seats, heated steering wheel, and heated mirrors in the winter here in Ohio.   My sister, on the other hand, doesn't have them in her car, doesn't like them, and won't use the heated seats in my Jeep when she rides w/ me.    After having vehicles w/ heated seats for over 20 years, it's a feature I gotta have in cold climates...

Edited February 24, 2022 by Rob Hall

[iamsuperdan]

On 2/22/2022 at 5:34 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

I've got old-school 7" round Hella quartz-halogens in the Spyder, and vintage 7" Marchal halogen driving lights (NOS race car stuff). 100 amp alternator, 10 gage wiring.

With everything lit, it's so bright the birds in the trees think it's dawn and start singing as I go by.   

EDIT: Snagged a pile of NOS Cibie and Lucas bulbs and housings last spring while cleaning out a friend's basement. Should have enough for at least one Jag and the 911.

If I recall, your OBS Chev has the old school rectangular headlights, correct?

If you've considered upgrading the lights, give these a try. https://www.ipf-light.com/catalog/headLamp.php#head

I ran these lights in my old Jeep XJ, and they were a massive improvement over stock. No need for LEDs.

 

 

On 2/22/2022 at 5:15 PM, BlackSheep214 said:

Heated seats/steering wheel, vented seats, massaging seats, sunroofs, dual or three zone AC, and all those other goodies are options added to the sticker price. I don’t see a need for them, especially heated seats. Why? We all survived just find before they were added as an option. The biggest waste of $$$$ those are. Both my bro in law and sis in law have them on their CR-Vs and love them. I just shake my head....

Rear cameras, LED lights, keyless start, etc... are pretty much standard in newer cars. Satellite radio usually included and are offered 3 months free then you have the option to subscribe. New cars no longer have CD players - a big pet peeve of mine.

My Hyundai Kona SEL (when it ever comes in) has more features than my wife’s 2021 Honda CR-V.

You may not see a need, but the majority of consumers do. Whether because they really want it, or because they been brainwashed into thinking they do. People ask for all of that stuff. Go to any dealer lot right now. You will not find a base model vehicle on the lot. Some dealers might have one zipper model in stock as an advertising price leader. But I'm willing to bet every in stock car is very well equipped. It's what people ask for. They see the zipper model, and ask about adding AC. Or the heated seats. Or whatever. Pretty soon, they're $5k higher and have everything they asked for.

From the dealer point of view, we're only allocated a certain number of vehicles. If we are allocated 5 new Explorers this month for example, are we going to stock a basic XLT or are we going to bring in the loaded ST that people ask for? People see an XLT, then ask about larger wheels, or a moonroof, or heated steering wheel.  It's going to be 5 new ST models for sure. With Super Duty trucks, do we bring in the work spec trucks, or the loaded Platinums that people ask for? It's the same thing. I look at the factory orders we have incoming for our retail department, and almost everything is a loaded up, leathered up vehicle.  And those are vehicles that clients have spec'd out. They can literally place an order for anything, yet everyone specs out a highly equipped vehicle.

So those of us who don't need every bell and whistle are in the minority. I like a couple of bells, maybe a whistle or two, but I don't want all of them. Wifey on the other hand...

 

And yes, we all survived fine with crank windows and keys instead of push buttons, but that's not the way it is now. We survived just fine with horse and buggy too, but here we are.

[Ace-Garageguy]

5 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

If I recall, your OBS Chev has the old school rectangular headlights, correct?

If you've considered upgrading the lights, give these a try. https://www.ipf-light.com/catalog/headLamp.php#head

I ran these lights in my old Jeep XJ, and they were a massive improvement over stock. No need for LEDs.

Thank you. I'll definitely look into those. Good memory.

The GMC has single rectangular lamps, pretty much the worst of the available sealed-beam configurations, and the Silverado has quads.

[iamsuperdan]

2 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Thank you. I'll definitely look into those. Good memory.

The GMC has single rectangular lamps, pretty much the worst of the available sealed-beam configurations, and the Silverado has quads.

And they still sell them where I bought mine. ?

https://www.quadratec.com/products/97017_1600.htm

 

Those quad lights are much harder to find good replacements for. 

[sjordan2]

Not just electronics. About a dozen years ago, my '93 Corvette needed a front clip after an accident and later the rear hatch glass. These parts were no longer available from the factory for my model year, and my Chevy dealer was reluctant to find other sources because they had to use "Genuine GM Parts." I tracked down the front clip online in a Phoenix salvage yard.