Older Nascar Cars

[CRANMAN1]

Some pics of Older Nascar cars that were outside track yesterday @ Charlotte Motorspeedway

[espo]

Beautiful looking old race cars. Looking at the picture of the Ford Torino you can't help but notice the exstream drop on the front end. Anyone who has even seen the road going version will see it right away. 

[Mike 1017]

I think that Ford built 3 for the street. Last time I saw one for sale the asking price was $258,000. 

[TransAmMike]

Awwww those were the days!!?       Real stock cars and real stock car drivers.

[Mike 1017]

Smoking cigarettes in the pits, while fueling the cars. Street clothes and street shoes maybe a team T shirt. Ned Jarrett and Dr. Jerry Punch announcing the races.

The real challenge was trying to find out which station was televising the race TNT, TNN, CMS or who else. IMO Fox Tv ruined NASCAR. Boogity Boogity 

You are right real cars and real drivers

Mike

[Khils]

22 minutes ago, Mike 1017 said:

The real challenge was trying to find out which station was televising the race TNT, TNN, CMS or who else. IMO Fox Tv ruined NASCAR. Boogity Boogity 

You are right real cars and real drivers

You nailed it Mike!

[DustyMojave]

As a guy who made much of his career fabricating on, mechanicing on, and restoring vintage race cars, I'm appalled at the re-shaping of the bodies of these vintage race cars. The Talladega in particular. I saw these cars in person at Riverside Raceway in 1969/70. I was an Official for the local SCCA Sports Car Club. SCCA races were "support" races for the NASCAR Big Event. So I was in the garages right up close and personal. These cars in the pictures look SO wrong.

Look at pictures of these same cars in races in those days and note the differences. And since they are many decades beyond competitive use, there's no justifiable reason to modernize or upgrade the aero of these cars. They are best if they are the same as they were in their day.

This sort of alterations of something that has historical significance is what I call "Creative Memory". It's how someone who has the money and someone else who has the know-how can modify something to how they THINK it should be. And usually those people are guys who were not even alive when those cars were being raced. It's like painting hieroglyphics in an Egyptian tomb of a Pharaoh cruising down the Nile in a speedboat.

Look at the depth of the hood recesses on the 3 Daytonas. Each is different. Note that they do NOT have separate nose pieces. Only 1 has any semblance of a separation line fro the nose, but it's not actually separate. Note the fully fabricated dash board and top and lack of seat belts in the #22 car. Note the modern seat in the #42. Note the air vents in the tail panel of the #71. Note the subtly reshaped rear fenders and chin spoiler under the #71. Modern Basset wheels and wider tires on the #71 also. Lack of headlight panels on #22 and 71. Difference in amount of fender above the wheel opening in the 3 Daytonas. The Talladega front clip is nearly TOTALLY re-shaped. Those mods would NEVER have gotten past the NASCAR Tech Inspectors in the day.

Before I retired from race car fabricating and restoration, I worked on restoring a '67 Mustang Trans Am race car. It had been bought back by its original owner who bought it new from Shelby, whose shop built it, just like the Mustang that took the Championship that year. He paid over $100K to get it back, less engine and trans and badly rusted. Although he sold it race ready for less than $4K back in about 1970. He was expecting the car to have a market value of over $400K when we were done. So we were were about $100K into restoration when I was away for a few days. I return and the rear 1/4s have big new nicely done fender flares wider than my hand (when the car was raced fender flares were not allowed), there new tubular fabricated front control arms sitting beside it, new Wilwood big disc brakes, new wider wheels, new Kirkey racing seat, and lots of other stuff. Right after I got there, the car owner showed up. I asked what the plan was with the new stuff instead of the original parts. He told me he had been talking to some of the other guys racing the "Vintage Trans Am Series" (not real racing, but vintage cars going around the track at speed), and they told him that he should be upgrading such things. So I told him and the guy I was working with about a '68 Mustang that had been modified just as they were planning to do and had it for sale on the internet for $30K for 2 years. I went to the shop computer and showed the ad for the other Mustang to them. I told them if they wanted to modify the car like that, it was up to the owner. But he would then own a Mustang that he had spent $300K on which would not sell for $30K, just like the one on the internet. It was clear I was NOT a popular person in the shop that day, so I went off and worked on another project. A couple of days later, I walked in and found all those parts sitting in boxes next to the front door. The nicely flared rear fender panels were laying on the ground, having been cut out with a plasma torch. I was told the plan was to restore the car as it was in 1967. But I was hardly spoken to for the next month.

John Morton drove it for a while in Vintage Trans Am after we finished it.

So if you want to build a historically accurate model of one of those cars, or others... I suggest you are better off using vintage photos of the original race car for reference rather than new photos of the "RESTORED" car. If, on the other hand, you LIKE the way these modernized race cars look, then by ALL MEANS, build your model that way. Don't ANYBODY DARE to think that I'm trying to tell people HOW they HAVE TO build their model.

Edited May 30, 2022 by DustyMojave

[espo]

13 hours ago, DustyMojave said:

As a guy who made much of his career fabricating on, mechanicing on, and restoring vintage race cars, I'm appalled at the re-shaping of the bodies of these vintage race cars. The Talladega in particular. I saw these cars in person at Riverside Raceway in 1969/70. I was an Official for the local SCCA Sports Car Club. SCCA races were "support" races for the NASCAR Big Event. So I was in the garages right up close and personal. These cars in the pictures look SO wrong.

Look at pictures of these same cars in races in those days and note the differences. And since they are many decades beyond competitive use, there's no justifiable reason to modernize or upgrade the aero of these cars. They are best if they are the same as they were in their day.

This sort of alterations of something that has historical significance is what I call "Creative Memory". It's how someone who has the money and someone else who has the know-how can modify something to how they THINK it should be. And usually those people are guys who were not even alive when those cars were being raced. It's like painting hieroglyphics in an Egyptian tomb of a Pharaoh cruising down the Nile in a speedboat.

Look at the depth of the hood recesses on the 3 Daytonas. Each is different. Note that they do NOT have separate nose pieces. Only 1 has any semblance of a separation line fro the nose, but it's not actually separate. Note the fully fabricated dash board and top and lack of seat belts in the #22 car. Note the modern seat in the #42. Note the air vents in the tail panel of the #71. Note the subtly reshaped rear fenders and chin spoiler under the #71. Modern Basset wheels and wider tires on the #71 also. Lack of headlight panels on #22 and 71. Difference in amount of fender above the wheel opening in the 3 Daytonas. The Talladega front clip is nearly TOTALLY re-shaped. Those mods would NEVER have gotten past the NASCAR Tech Inspectors in the day.

Before I retired from race car fabricating and restoration, I worked on restoring a '67 Mustang Trans Am race car. It had been bought back by its original owner who bought it new from Shelby, whose shop built it, just like the Mustang that took the Championship that year. He paid over $100K to get it back, less engine and trans and badly rusted. Although he sold it race ready for less than $4K back in about 1970. He was expecting the car to have a market value of over $400K when we were done. So we were were about $100K into restoration when I was away for a few days. I return and the rear 1/4s have big new nicely done fender flares wider than my hand (when the car was raced fender flares were not allowed), there new tubular fabricated front control arms sitting beside it, new Wilwood big disc brakes, new wider wheels, new Kirkey racing seat, and lots of other stuff. Right after I got there, the car owner showed up. I asked what the plan was with the new stuff instead of the original parts. He told me he had been talking to some of the other guys racing the "Vintage Trans Am Series" (not real racing, but vintage cars going around the track at speed), and they told him that he should be upgrading such things. So I told him and the guy I was working with about a '68 Mustang that had been modified just as they were planning to do and had it for sale on the internet for $30K for 2 years. I went to the shop computer and showed the ad for the other Mustang to them. I told them if they wanted to modify the car like that, it was up to the owner. But he would then own a Mustang that he had spent $300K on which would not sell for $30K, just like the one on the internet. It was clear I was NOT a popular person in the shop that day, so I went off and worked on another project. A couple of days later, I walked in and found all those parts sitting in boxes next to the front door. The nicely flared rear fender panels were laying on the ground, having been cut out with a plasma torch. I was told the plan was to restore the car as it was in 1967. But I was hardly spoken to for the next month.

John Morton drove it for a while in Vintage Trans Am after we finished it.

So if you want to build a historically accurate model of one of those cars, or others... I suggest you are better off using vintage photos of the original race car for reference rather than new photos of the "RESTORED" car. If, on the other hand, you LIKE the way these modernized race cars look, then by ALL MEANS, build your model that way. Don't ANYBODY DARE to think that I'm trying to tell people HOW they HAVE TO build their model.

I totally agree with what you have put forward on these "restored" race cars. All too often to many liberties are taken and the finished vehicle may resemble the original, but it still isn't like the real thing. You mentioned your involvement with the SCCA at Riverside in '69 and '70. I happened to be working for Union Oil at that time out of the Colton Terminal, and one of my jobs was dispensing the racing fuel at the station in the infield. I remember a couple of guys who had true show room stock '69 Z-28's that were listening to the factory radio in their new '69 Camaros. I enjoyed spending my weekends out there and watching the races from the top of our transport truck and getting the brown bag lunches supplied by the raceway. 

[Mike 1017]

Richard,

You are correct about road racing cars. If I was in it for real racing, I would get a used race car. There are plenty to choose from $10,000 to $50,000 which is a lot cheaper than commissioning one from scratch. All the bugs have been sorted out. Just get in and beat the Hell out of it and have fun.

Those Winged Warriors may be re-worked Roadrunners or Chargers. It's a lot more prudent to fabricate the front aero piece than find a real one. The same goes for that Torino.

One Daytona sat unsold for almost 2 years at Mr. Norms Chicago. I really admire people who have held on to these historic cars.

See the $1 million+ 1969 Charger Daytona from the Mecum auction – Stellpower

Mike

[64Comet404]

The Talledega looks as if it is a replica body over a later chassis. I know the original Marty Robbins and K&K Insurance cars still exist, but I don't know if these cars are as advertised. Thoughts?

[DustyMojave]

On 5/30/2022 at 10:47 AM, espo said:

I totally agree with what you have put forward on these "restored" race cars. All too often to many liberties are taken and the finished vehicle may resemble the original, but it still isn't like the real thing. You mentioned your involvement with the SCCA at Riverside in '69 and '70. I happened to be working for Union Oil at that time out of the Colton Terminal, and one of my jobs was dispensing the racing fuel at the station in the infield. I remember a couple of guys who had true show room stock '69 Z-28's that were listening to the factory radio in their new '69 Camaros. I enjoyed spending my weekends out there and watching the races from the top of our transport truck and getting the brown bag lunches supplied by the raceway. 

Well then you and I probably crossed paths back then. I grew up involved in sports car racing. Spending sometimes over 40 weekends/year at SoCal tracks. Riverside, Willow Springs, Pomona, Dodger Stadium, Ontario Motor Speedway, Goleta Airport (Santa Barbara), Paramount Ranch,Jack Murphy Stadium, Holtville AirField near El Centro, Taft, Hanford Speedway, Las Vegas, Phoenix. On off weekends we often went to circle track and dry lakes races that were my Dad's roots. He had owned and driven midgets, track roadsters and dry lakes cars. Ascot, Saugus Speedway, Irwindale, Whiteman Stadium, and of course, El Mirage dry lake (that I've lived near for the past 33 years). I grew up a mile away from San Fernando Drag Strip and went to lots of others. So I had a really well rounded exposure to racing of many sorts since the 50s. And all that time I was always involved, Not often a fan in the bleachers. I was up close and personal with the race cars. So I KNOW what these cars should be like.

I see such alterations to "vintage race cars" of all sorts. It's like a once beautiful young actress that now has the terrible distortion of decades of plastic surgery. They're vintage race cars. They don't need aero tricks to make them faster.

If those modifications look good to you, Go right on ahead and build your model like that if you want. But you won't see any of those sort of updates on any of my vintage models.

 

OH...And Espo...Those bag lunches were made by the ladies of Cal Club (the SoCal region  of SCCA). Not provided by the Raceway. The very stock 69 z-28s were probably there for a SOLO event (one car at a time against the clock).

[espo]

3 hours ago, DustyMojave said:

Well then you and I probably crossed paths back then. I grew up involved in sports car racing. Spending sometimes over 40 weekends/year at SoCal tracks. Riverside, Willow Springs, Pomona, Dodger Stadium, Ontario Motor Speedway, Goleta Airport (Santa Barbara), Paramount Ranch,Jack Murphy Stadium, Holtville AirField near El Centro, Taft, Hanford Speedway, Las Vegas, Phoenix. On off weekends we often went to circle track and dry lakes races that were my Dad's roots. He had owned and driven midgets, track roadsters and dry lakes cars. Ascot, Saugus Speedway, Irwindale, Whiteman Stadium, and of course, El Mirage dry lake (that I've lived near for the past 33 years). I grew up a mile away from San Fernando Drag Strip and went to lots of others. So I had a really well rounded exposure to racing of many sorts since the 50s. And all that time I was always involved, Not often a fan in the bleachers. I was up close and personal with the race cars. So I KNOW what these cars should be like.

I see such alterations to "vintage race cars" of all sorts. It's like a once beautiful young actress that now has the terrible distortion of decades of plastic surgery. They're vintage race cars. They don't need aero tricks to make them faster.

If those modifications look good to you, Go right on ahead and build your model like that if you want. But you won't see any of those sort of updates on any of my vintage models.

 

OH...And Espo...Those bag lunches were made by the ladies of Cal Club (the SoCal region  of SCCA). Not provided by the Raceway. The very stock 69 z-28s were probably there for a SOLO event (one car at a time against the clock).

Well I never realized who was responsible for the brown bag lunch, but they were good. Someone would just pull into the station in the pits in one of those lawn mower powered flatbeds and we just thought it was the raceway buy lunch. You mention the "stock" Z28's and in fact they were going at it door to door but as I recall it was some type of club event or armature at least. I was there when the pro drivers were doing the Trans Am races as well as any NASCAR events. I briefly got involved in the Winston West Hobby Stocks at the Orange Show in San Bernardino and the Permatex at Riverside. Nothing to the extent you enjoyed. I was limited by both funds and a young family so that was my main priorities at the time. I'm sure we may have passed in the pits since it sounds like you were there when ever I would have been. As for the pictures of the "Stock Cars" that started this conversation, The Ford Talladega especially looks strange to me. I had a friend that had one of the Dan Gurney edition street car and the front looked nothing like the picture here. I know that there was liberties taken between the street car and what was on the starting grid, but the car in this picture would never be allowed to compete with that nose. Nice talking to you and know there are many that were or are involved in different types of racing and seeing some of the things offered as a replica race car now aren't even close.