Automotive Machine Work: Crankshaft Grinding

[Ace-Garageguy]

Most "car guys" have zero clue when it comes to real, in depth, automotive machine work.

And today's generations of highly "educated" chair-weights whose definition of "work" is pushing a cursor around a screen with a mouse, or writing code that in some cases they don't even understand, tend to look down their noses at what they perceive to be grimy, knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers who actually get their hands dirty (OMG!!!) making and repairing things.

The video below details the steps involved in re-grinding the crank journals on a big truck engine, but the self-same steps are identical to what every small-town machine shop in the USA used to be able to do on a daily basis on the garden-variety car engine. It's pretty obvious these skills are dying here, and why more and more tired engines end up as scrap metal instead of being reconditioned and returned to service.

Rebuilding engines correctly, which involves a great deal of technical skill and a well-developed intellect, USES MUCH LESS ENERGY AND EMITS MUCH LESS CARBON than it takes to melt them down to make new ones. But nobody thinks about that, and there's not many people around who can do it anymore anyway. It's just too icky.  (Insert old-man-yelling-at-cloud meme here )

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY

[Paul Payne]

These are skills that can not be lost in the States, because we do too much replacing and not enough repairing, and too many things go overseas. Support local businesses and shop classes, and trade schools.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Paul Payne

[keyser]

Cummins. Old Rams with them unkillable. 
Yeah, re-rollering a Hirth crank even rarer, one old friend was the master and he passed (fell shoveling snow, hit head) without many other sources. RIP Bill Doyle. 

[espo]

People in machine shops that know what they are doing are skilled craftsmen and deserve the same respect as any other skilled craftsmen. The close tolerances in any machine are the key to its longevity and performance. Mis the proper clearances by thousands of an inch can be the difference between a great long living engine and a "grenade" leaving a gapping whole through the side of the block and an oil pan full of debris if it's even still attached.  

[Ace-Garageguy]

For the most part, it takes a craftsman to fully appreciate another craftsman.

Today, sadly, tool-wielding chimps, not craftsmen, are the norm in the physical trades, and those who live in blissful ignorance of cause-and-effect physical reality often conflate the two.

But a "first world" country that allows physical skills among its natives to wither and die, believing they can all be farmed out "offshore" or relegated to an immigrant underclass, is destined to become a "third-world" country in short order.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY

[keyser]

It’s going to become worse as electrics obviate need for this. I’m IC forever, because this. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, keyser said:

It’s going to become worse as electrics obviate need for this...

Yes, though I've heard it postulated by those not in the business that "EVs will take just as much skilled repair and maintenance as ICs".

Wrong. Already, much of the "skill" has disappeared from IC work...particularly in the dealer environment, with everything late-model relying on onboard diagnostics, and "repairs" being primarily computer-guided component replacement. God help you if you have an older vehicle where many of the secondary components are no longer available.

EVs, if well designed, will require even less working knowledge on the part of the servicing technicians, and repairs will be primarily replacement of modular assemblies and battery packs, drawing on only the most basic mechanical skills.

 

[1972coronet]

7 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

For the most part, it takes a craftsman to fully appreciate another craftsman.

Today, sadly, tool-wielding chimps, not craftsmen, are the norm in the physical trades, and those who live in blissful ignorance of cause-and-effect physical reality often conflate the two.

But a "first world" country that allows physical skills among its natives to wither and die, believing they can all be farmed out "offshore" or relegated to an immigrant underclass, is destined to become a "third-world" country in short order.

I've been saying this since high school (during the younger-generations-now-look-at-them-through-rose-coloured-glasses 1980s). Auto Shop was a joke by the time I got to H.S. in 1985, reduced to book work and un-applied theory. A certain. um, prevailing mindset at that time defunded programmes such a Crafts and Trades, but mysteriously the sports programmes survived unscathed.
A real head-scratcher.

There's is hope: a fellow who's much younger than me is a gear head par excellence. He and his brother have:
- 1969 Dart Custom four door 
- 1972 Swinger (360/4-speed, and a Ram Rod shifter!)
- 1974 Duster with a 340 (originally a 225)
The two of them perform their own work, including body work. 

But, yes, I was 'Born To Lose' for sure. I had zero interest in "technology" (I could draw faster than those stupid CAD things could - again, 1985 - and with considerably less steps); zero interest in college (my poor grades kept me from pursuing medical and/or sciences); and, as a conscientious objector, no interest in the military branches.

But, I digress...

My 2nd cousins attended high school in a Los Angeles suburb; a school which offered {{{GaSp!}}} Carpentry and Auto Shop! And this was recently (the last one having graduated in 2021).

Thank you, @Ace-Garageguy, for sharing this sweet video!

[keyser]

[espo]

16 hours ago, 1972coronet said:

I've been saying this since high school (during the younger-generations-now-look-at-them-through-rose-coloured-glasses 1980s). Auto Shop was a joke by the time I got to H.S. in 1985, reduced to book work and un-applied theory. A certain. um, prevailing mindset at that time defunded programmes such a Crafts and Trades, but mysteriously the sports programmes survived unscathed.
A real head-scratcher.

There's is hope: a fellow who's much younger than me is a gear head par excellence. He and his brother have:
- 1969 Dart Custom four door 
- 1972 Swinger (360/4-speed, and a Ram Rod shifter!)
- 1974 Duster with a 340 (originally a 225)
The two of them perform their own work, including body work. 

But, yes, I was 'Born To Lose' for sure. I had zero interest in "technology" (I could draw faster than those stupid CAD things could - again, 1985 - and with considerably less steps); zero interest in college (my poor grades kept me from pursuing medical and/or sciences); and, as a conscientious objector, no interest in the military branches.

But, I digress...

My 2nd cousins attended high school in a Los Angeles suburb; a school which offered {{{GaSp!}}} Carpentry and Auto Shop! And this was recently (the last one having graduated in 2021).

Thank you, @Ace-Garageguy, for sharing this sweet video!

Mentioning your cousin that is taking carpentry classes in high school reminds me of some of the classes offered when I was in school. First off, this was some time ago, and in what was called a "bedroom community" of Chicago. The point is if someone has the inclination for this trade, they do have the possibility of making a good living and steady work. The afore mentioned school offered a class that taught students to build a home from the ground up. Every year they would build a home which was later offered for sale and the funds were used to help pay for materials for the next years build. In addition, you might be surprised if you ask around as to what a really good finish carpenter can earn. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

27 minutes ago, espo said:

...In addition, you might be surprised if you ask around as to what a really good finish carpenter can earn. 

I see and hear a lot of complaints about why good carpenters, mechanics, and other skilled trades "charge so much".

Once again, we get back to the widespread public perception that the people who perform this work are mental midgets who are too stupid to develop and maintain poorly performing glitchy websites or design 3rd-rate emojis.

Apparently, their feeling is that skilled physical work is of such little value that a dog can do it (if only pooches had opposable thumbs), so a human doing it should only be paid enough to live under a bridge in order to make the totally physically inept more comfortable.

Thing is, moderately physically-skilled workers used to be fairly commonplace, the poorly-skilled were always the norm, and the highly-skilled "craftsmen" in any given profession have always been the exception.

But with the advent of the idea that anything worth doing can be done on a laptop or phone, even the moderately physically-skilled are in increasingly short supply...and a major part of the reason why vehicles are increasingly viewed as disposable items like old phones and computers.

So my question to the too-smart-to-get-your-hands-dirty brigade is this: if the physical work you need done is so simple and undemanding intellectually that it shouldn't pay much, why can't you DO IT YOURSELF?

 

[keyser]

The other issue that comes up with great craftsmen is being flaky. I’ve had great guys do work, or part of it, and just ghost, excuses, whatever.

A great 1-man Porsche shop has had a friends 993 TT for 6yr. Not done. Only in for engine rebuild, clutch, update suspension. Parts mostly in hand. Tech is a friend too. 

Skills, knowledge, personality, but finish it. Yes quickie jobs generate cash flow. Hire kid to do some, learn. But finish it. 
 

[Ace-Garageguy]

38 minutes ago, keyser said:

The other issue that comes up with great craftsmen is being flaky. I’ve had great guys do work, or part of it, and just ghost, excuses, whatever.

A great 1-man Porsche shop has had a friends 993 TT for 6yr. Not done. Only in for engine rebuild, clutch, update suspension. Parts mostly in hand. Tech is a friend too. 

Skills, knowledge, personality, but finish it. Yes quickie jobs generate cash flow. Hire kid to do some, learn. But finish it. 
 

Not saying this is your issue, but a lot of great craftsmen are poor business managers.

They'll make the mistake of bidding a big job with a lot of unknowns to get the work, then get in over their heads financially and have to divert to short-term stuff to maintain cash flow, keep the doors open. It becomes a constant game of catch-up, and if they take an advance on the work, it can get totally out of control.

I learned this the hard way, having done it myself on several occasions.

The ONLY way to run a shop doing non-standard work (which means not crash work estimated from databases like CCC, or straight component replacement with "book time" readily available)...IF YOUR QUALITY CAN JUSTIFY IT...is to refuse making bids, and insist on an hourly rate for what is actually accomplished, billed monthly at the longest, with scrupulous record keeping (I keep stopwatch time and document everything with copious notes and photos).

I was hesitant to do the no-estimate and progress-billing, but since I began, I still have inquiries for more work than I can ever do (or will, as I'm done forever after these last two big jobs), content clients, and cash flow has ceased to be an issue.

For what it's worth, it was Chip Foose who made me see the light. When he was asked "how much will it cost" to build something, he smiled and said "I can tell you to the nickel what it will cost: however many hours it takes to do it, at the shop rate, plus materials".

Smart guy.    

[Ace-Garageguy]

There's two BIG problems with "craftsmanship" that I've also had hammered home over 5+ decades, and the major reasons it's getting even harder to hire help than it was 20 years back.

You can NOT teach mechanical aptitude. It's a God-given talent, just like playing the piano. Someone lacking it in sufficient quantity may become a reasonably competent technician, but will never be a true craftsman.

Nor can you teach someone to CARE. Conscientiousness is now recognized to be an inborn personality trait, and without it in sufficient quantity, you'll get, at best, a slacker who CAN do good work but won't, and who'll always take the easiest way. (There's nothing wrong with "working smarter", thinking through more efficient procedures etc., but the fact is that much of "craftsmanship" is simply being willing to put in the hours, sometimes, on mind-numbing work until you get it right.)

 

[1930fordpickup]

One of the best crank grinders here in the Toledo Area, left for a NASCAR engine builder 20 to 25 years ago.  One small machine shop (that did great work) closed when the employees left to make double the money at the Railroad. I am not even sure where you take an engine around here to get it reworked.  The crate engines with a warranty put most out around here along with the newer cars lasting longer. 

If the old cranky guys don't hire and teach young guys it will never change.  They are looking around here for kids in the trades. When you don't hire new guys for 20 to 25 years and the guys that work  all of the overtime they can retire who is there?  

When I graduated high school in 84 no one was hiring in the trades. you had to wait about 4 to 5 years for that influx of newer people. 

Some places still have a retirement at 30 years, even if they don't the body can only work for so long before you are worn out. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 minutes ago, 1930fordpickup said:

...If the old cranky guys don't hire and teach young guys it will never change...

Entirely true.

And just try to hire an entry-level person with sufficient mechanical aptitude, intelligence (particularly reading comprehension and some math ability), and conscientiousness to ultimately make a good machinist, mechanic, bodyman, whatever.

Try it, and let me know your outcome. I'm in a major metro area in the Southeast, and we have found exactly ONE young guy with those qualifications since 2016.

[keyser]

Pretty much what it is. Sad. 
I laugh at tv shops. Looking in background and you see tons of projects incomplete, then a show about an approaching deadline thrash. It’s always best work when everyone is in a hurry. Wait, what??‍?

Then there’s clowns like Phantomworks. Guy kvetches and complains about everything, decides what customers want, and bills bejeezus out of a job. Bills for mistakes too. Hey kids, you broke it, you own it. Just needs a good punch in the face.

Edited January 1, 2023 by keyser

[Bills72sj]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

There's two BIG problems with "craftsmanship" that I've also had hammered home over 5+ decades, and the major reasons it's getting even harder to hire help than it was 20 years back.

You can NOT teach mechanical aptitude. It's a God-given talent, just like playing the piano. Someone lacking it in sufficient quantity may become a reasonably competent technician, but will never be a true craftsman.

Nor can you teach someone to CARE. Conscientiousness is now recognized to be an inborn personality trait, and without it in sufficient quantity, you'll get, at best, a slacker who CAN do good work but won't, and who'll always take the easiest way. (There's nothing wrong with "working smarter", thinking through more efficient procedures etc., but the fact is that much of "craftsmanship" is simply being willing to put in the hours, sometimes, on mind-numbing work until you get it right.)

 

I work in the skilled trades. HVAC at present, commercial restaurant service, industrial maintenance, cell site construction, wireless communication infrastructure in the past. Mechanical aptitude and conscientiousness are the two main ingredients to my success. Lots of people have suggested that I run my own business. No thanks, too much government taxes and regulations and then there is the HR side of things. I love using my hands AND my brain everyday with no stress.

[BuilderX]

Yep nothing like a Automotive machinist! Been helping my uncle for over 30 years in his machine shop.

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by BuilderX

[espo]

21 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I see and hear a lot of complaints about why good carpenters, mechanics, and other skilled trades "charge so much".

Once again, we get back to the widespread public perception that the people who perform this work are mental midgets who are too stupid to develop and maintain poorly performing glitchy websites or design 3rd-rate emojis.

Apparently, their feeling is that skilled physical work is of such little value that a dog can do it (if only pooches had opposable thumbs), so a human doing it should only be paid enough to live under a bridge in order to make the totally physically inept more comfortable.

Thing is, moderately physically-skilled workers used to be fairly commonplace, the poorly-skilled were always the norm, and the highly-skilled "craftsmen" in any given profession have always been the exception.

But with the advent of the idea that anything worth doing can be done on a laptop or phone, even the moderately physically-skilled are in increasingly short supply...and a major part of the reason why vehicles are increasingly viewed as disposable items like old phones and computers.

So my question to the too-smart-to-get-your-hands-dirty brigade is this: if the physical work you need done is so simple and undemanding intellectually that it shouldn't pay much, why can't you DO IT YOURSELF?

 

To your point in regard to skilled craftsmen. We recently downsized our living quarters for a much more manageable home for out twilight years. We did need to add a bedroom and expand the downstairs bathroom. We choose to wait an additional six months to get the remodel done by the small company we wanted to have do the work. They were far from the lowest bidder but had seen his work when his crew remodeled the shelter house at our former housing development. The work was done on time and on budget. The level of finishes are actually better than the original builders of our new home. For me it is more about what you get for your money than what you spend and get something that is disappointing for ever more. 

[Brudda]

This is an interesting forum. I’m 66 and still doing bodywork on car and trucks. Still healthy but getting a little tired. Started in 1969. Fast forward to today, we have ( a dealership)been  looking for a qualified tech for over a year with advertisements all over Calif and Nevada. Only a handful responded and out of those only two were in the running. But by the time we responded they had jobs somewhere else. I have been trying to retire for a year now but I get sucked back into the trade. I owe a lot to the owner, who helped me over the years, so I help him by staying around till he finds someone. Hopefully he finds someone as I’m going to retire very soon. But in a way it’s been nice when someone does not want to kick you out the door because of your age. Here is our project, an old blazer but all new parts and it takes a little skill to do it. We put new floors and quarter panels on the blazer. Put in all the parts,engine trans etc. made her run Something the kids can’t do, 

[espo]

2 hours ago, Brudda said:

This is an interesting forum. I’m 66 and still doing bodywork on car and trucks. Still healthy but getting a little tired. Started in 1969. Fast forward to today, we have ( a dealership)been  looking for a qualified tech for over a year with advertisements all over Calif and Nevada. Only a handful responded and out of those only two were in the running. But by the time we responded they had jobs somewhere else. I have been trying to retire for a year now but I get sucked back into the trade. I owe a lot to the owner, who helped me over the years, so I help him by staying around till he finds someone. Hopefully he finds someone as I’m going to retire very soon. But in a way it’s been nice when someone does not want to kick you out the door because of your age. Here is our project, an old blazer but all new parts and it takes a little skill to do it. We put new floors and quarter panels on the blazer. Put in all the parts,engine trans etc. made her run Something the kids can’t do, 

With LS power no less. Going to be nice when you're finished. 

[Brudda]

2 hours ago, espo said:

With LS power no less. Going to be nice when you're finished. 

Thank you and it’s a monster. For me the wiring was the hardest. But it runs. A lot of horses, too much for me but the boss/ owner, loves it. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

4 hours ago, Brudda said:

...I’m 66 and still doing work on cars and trucks. Still healthy but getting a little tired...Here is our project, an old blazer but all new parts and it takes a little skill to do it...

Looks like beautifully clean, first-rate, professional work. Always great to see something that's so well done.  

Edited January 15, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy
TYPO

[Brudda]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Looks like beautifully clean, first-rate, professional work. Always great to see something that's so well done.  

Thank you Ace-Garageguy. I guess it’s like a great big model, but it has to work, and look good. The work part is hard. The shake down is a pain. You have things you did not expect. Like I just fired her up again today and there is a leak in the power steering hose. These are the things you just have to do. Part of the build.