3D printers - is it worth it?

[customline]

OK, the old lady bought a new Asus Zephyrus laptop with extreme capabilities.  ?  I was thinking maybe (I haven't told her this yet, please keep it quiet) using this new source of computing power for my own selfish needs.  So I have questions.  1) how much do I need to spend on a printer to make model parts? 2) can it make good clean early Ford dropped beam axles and small fragile stuff like that? 3) what software is used for this and where do I get it? 

That's enough for now. Let's see where it goes; ? I know I'll have a few more.

[stitchdup]

first make sure you have at least 8 gig of processor in the laptop or it wont be able to run the slicer, i didn't and ended up having to buy a new laptop that did. I have a anycubic photon mono x and the wash/cure station which was bought together from a seller on ebay for around £500 but i would expect there to be better deals now christmas is by with. depending on what resin you use you'll also need 99.9 alcohol if not using water washable resin, lots of disposable gloves, filter funnels and a funnel just for use with the printer. I still have trouble with my prints but its user error on my part as its all new to me. Afew decent sized tubs are useful too for pre washing parts. Its a steep learning curve so if theres kids in the house maybe get them some ear plugs as there will be plenty cursing while learning too. I didn't even look at mine for a month as nothing was working for me to begin with and i was close to throwing it out the window quite a few times so be prepared for that. I got more help on here than any of the printer forums too so read the 3d printing thread as it has a lot of good info from folk doing what we do

Edited January 8, 2023 by stitchdup

[peteski]

The question is: are you ready for another (fairly complex, and requiring new computer skills) hobby?  I've been watching hobby 3D printing technology for several years and haven't jumped in.

I'm not going to address the filament-printing process because the resolution is usually not fine enough for what we need in 1:25 scale.  This is about the SLA process using UV light and liquid resin. Not even considering that this 3D printing technology is messy: parts have to be fished out of liquid resin, rinsed in alcohol (or water for some resins), post-cured in UV light, the bigger challenge is the actual computer work.

If you want to design parts from scratch you need to get proficient in one of many CAD drafting programs.  It is not a trivial task (and it will take lots of time away from your conventional modeling). Even if you will not want to do a complete design, you can find some online designs, but those are not print-ready either.

You will have to learn how to use a slicer (the program which converts a 3D drawing into format that the printer can use to "grow" the design, a slice at a time).  It is not always an easy process. Then there are the supports that have to be added for the parts to print properly.  Again, the auto-support-generation process is not always optimal, and you have to experiment adding more supports or relocating existing ones.  Lots of experimentation and trial and error are needed.

Then you have to deal selecting the right resin type for the specific task, and deal with the failed prints, and troubleshooting why they failed.  That is a lot of things to deal with, instead of building and painting model kits.

That is why I'm still an armchair 3D printer.

[customline]

That's it. I'm done. Thanks guys!

[Jiml0001]

Too bad.   I have been resin printing for almost two years and never had so much fun.   The printer I use is a Phrozon mini and I think those go for around $125.00 right now.   I use water based resin so no special needs there.   To cure the stuff I make I use an ultraviolet curing lamp that manicurists use and that was $15,00 on Amazon.  To wash parts I use Tupperware containers and put the parts in them with water and shake them a couple of minutes.   
  As far as software goes I use a program called Chitubox that came with the printer to slice and prepare files to be printed.   I am not a CAD drawing guy but there are so many files out there for free or at most a couple of bucks.  I do use a free software called Meshmixer that lets you make changes to existing files and even make new stuff.   That software does have a learning curve but it is pretty easy to learn.  
   So my investment to get started was less than $200.00 and I have had a ball.  As far as detail is concerned I printed a front axle leaf spring where even the spring shackles were separate. Tiny nuts, bolts, spark plugs come out amazing.

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Jiml0001

[TooOld]

12 minutes ago, Jiml0001 said:

I use water based resin so no special needs there.

First I've heard of water based resin , can you give more info ?

[MrObsessive]

1 hour ago, customline said:

That's it. I'm done. Thanks guys!

I'd not give up on the whole idea of 3D printing----mainly because there is a good side to what's all involved. Just to echo a bit of what Pete says, yes, it can be a bit messy, but then casting your own parts with chemically activated resin can be messy as well. So can painting, turning parts on a lathe, photoetching (if you have the machine).....it's what goes with the territory.

As was mentioned, you'd need to get familiar with the 3D programs out there, such as Blender, 3DBuilder, Fusion 360, Chitubox slicer (one of several slicer programs)---to name a couple. It's not an impossible task, but there is a learning curve to either change something that may not be correct as far as a design, to being able to scale a model as what the vendor tells you is not always correct.

The plus side, and I consider this a MAJOR plus.......the sky's the limit. If you have the file(s) for said car, it can be printed. You want a model of a 1958 Packard Hawk, you got it. How 'bout a 1966 Corvair four door hardtop? Well, you can have that too as that's the very car I'm making right now. Yes, it can take time away from regular building, but frankly, there are times I get tired of sitting at the work table trying to get a detail done with eyesight that's not as good as it used to be.

I consider it yet another part of our hobby that #1, is not going away any time soon, and #2, it can broaden your mind to a skill you may not have known you had. A good thing in my book.

Price? I have two printers, both Phrozen models. The smaller one was around $300, while the larger one was with shipping and resin was closer to $600. Yes, you're going to need good computer power to run the 3D programs as they can be RAM hogs. So, I'd say think it over---don't quite dismiss it, as I can see (and they're already doing) the model companies using 3D tech in a big way. A lot of these old/reconstituted kits we've been seeing of late----you can thank 3D printing for that. I can also see them offering files for either parts or whole kits one of these days.

Yeah, it's a good idea IMO to get familiar with the tech as time marches on, and the hobby is ever changing.

Edited January 8, 2023 by MrObsessive

[Ace-Garageguy]

14 minutes ago, Jiml0001 said:

...Too bad. I have been resin printing for almost two years and never had so much fun.

Most helpful info. Thanks.

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 minutes ago, MrObsessive said:

...I consider it yet another part of our hobby that #1, is not going away any time soon, and #2, it can broaden your mind to a skill you may not have known you had. A good thing in my book.

That's the way I see it. Thanks for posting your philosophy regarding learning.  

[MrObsessive]

Just a few pics of cars I've 3D printed over the last number of weeks/months........

Got tired of waiting for a CORRECT version of this car.......I found PERFECT video game files, converted 'em to print, and here ya go. ?

[stitchdup]

55 minutes ago, customline said:

That's it. I'm done. Thanks guys!

I wasn't trying to put you off. Before i got the printer my only real computer experience was surfing the web and playing games. Another problem was I had nobody i go to and ask for help as all the printer folks i know used the other priter type, not resin like i have. I'm sure I'd have got going much easier if there ws someone local i could get to come and help. I also spent a little more as I wanted to print bodies as well as parts. I spent the extra for the bigger machine because i knew i wanted to do larger items so didn't see any point buying a small machine only to have to spend again later. When it works it is fantastic and in time it will save me money and gives me much more choice in building cars that were never kitted.  Like i said i get more help on here than elsewhere. I've printed a pro street chassis and a hot rod kit and both of those turned out great to my eye, but at the same time other things havent turned out at all but thats user error on my part. This is the first body i printed and the damage is my own fault. The second one turned out great

heres the second, altogether the full kit cost around $20 including purchasing the files. I havent even tried drawing up my own stuff.

Its fought me loads but i'm starting to get the hang of it and while i have cursed the thing, I'm still pleased with it and i'm learning where i went wrong before

[Jiml0001]

Water based resin is available from just about every resin manufacturer.  I like the Eligoo brand and I think they call it water washable.   Two great things about it.  There is virtually no smell and you rinse your prints with water instead of alcohol.  Big savings there.  At first I was rinsing them in the sink and that was great but we are on a septic tank and I was concerned about putting uncurled resin in it.   I find just agitating the prints in plain water works great.  I leave the used rinse water in the sun and the resin sediment drops to the bottom and hardens and I can throw away the leftover sediment.  I bought a cleaner but the sediment would drop to the bottom of the tank and harden around the agitator so I was constantly taking it apart to clean out the gunk to free the agitator.  It was more trouble than it was worth.  
I haven’t done much with bodies but I have printed a tbucket body and frame that came out great.  I really love trying to get details like perfectly scaled distributors or alternators where you can see inside the open vents.  I have printed radiators where you can see through every fin and tube.  I have a lot of fun seeing just how detailed I can make something.   Carbs with linkages and eight cylinder distributors that measure out to three and a half scale inches are a lot of fun.  

[StevenGuthmiller]

I have nothing against 3-D printing, and think it's a good thing to an extent, but also a bad thing in some regards for the hobby.

Personally, with my limited tech abilities, and at my age, I'm not going to embark on a whole new endeavor that's going to eat up even more of my precious model building time, but as I said, that's my personal take.

 

As I said, I think it's good for the hobby as it stands now, because it can offer some things that we lack as far as detailed parts.

I love some of Fireball Modelwork's parts and will routinely incorporate them into my builds, for things like finely detailed carburetors, which our hobby has lacked for decades.

Where I feel like 3-D printing can hurt the hobby is by depriving the builder of actually learning how to build.

I understand that it might be much easier to print or buy an extremely highly detailed engine, or engine compartment, or whatever it might be, but at some point, it's going to become just a matter of printing up a show caliber model that will basically require little skill or thought outside of painting and assembly.

Old school modelers, like many of us, who have learned how to shape and mold plain old plastic into something tangible, will no longer have any relevance.

Not that I care, because I'm still going to do things as I always have, but at some point, nobody is going to have to go through the thought process, and the dexterity that it might take to build something yourself anymore, whether it be something as small as a power steering pump, or as large as a complete interior, or for that matter, an entire car, when they can just print up something that's going to be better anyway.

 

I would hate to be a judge at a model contest in the near future, who has to decide between the perfect and astronomically detailed 3-D printed model, versus the guy who spent months and months laboring over scratch made parts that are inferior to the 3-D printed ones.

Do you reward the finished product, regardless of how it was obtained, or do you reward the actual work that went into it.

 

I think that 3-D printing is probably the future of the hobby, without a doubt, but I think that it's proliferation also has some quite sad drawbacks.

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited January 8, 2023 by StevenGuthmiller

[Ace-Garageguy]

40 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

...Where I feel like 3-D printing can hurt the hobby is by depriving the builder of actually learning how to build...

...I think that 3-D printing is probably the future of the hobby, without a doubt, but I think that it's proliferation also has some quite sad drawbacks.

I have had similar feelings over the years, as a "hands on" old-school visual artist, protographer, and draftsman.

Digital cameras made film and darkrooms obsolete, and allowed "everyman" to turn out wonderful photos...assuming he had an eye for composition and color, ect. But frankly, most people don't. And happily, there are still enthusiasts who shoot and develop and print from film.

Digital art made painting and drawing largely obsolete, and the techniques and eye-hand coordination traditional artists use aren't necessary to turn out beautiful pictures. I think that's sad too, but again, there are still artists who use traditional media, and probably always will be...and it still takes talent to make "art" with a computer interface between artist and product.

CAD made drafting tables and inked lines and lettering obsolete, and though I use CAD as a time-saving tool sometimes, I still do my rough and concept work the old ways. Unfortunately, I know "engineers" who are virtually incapable of doing a "napkin" concept sketch with a pencil...and "machinists" who can't make something unless they have a CNC program to tell the 5-axis mill what to do.

We lose a lot as a civilization when we allow manual skills to wither and die, but we gain from having time-saving TOOLS in the box, which is what, for ME, all the newfangled tech offers.

NEW TOOLS and techniques to augment OLD TOOLS and techniques...but not to replace them.

As far as model cars go, Bill Cunningham's spectacular 3D printed birdcage Maserati (for example) took at least as much fitting and finish and paint work as any plastic kit, and the result of his dedication to learning the new ways added to his mastery of the old ways (he's a scratch-building whiz too), produced a 1/24 scale model that was simply beyond what anyone in this hobby could do just a few short years ago.

I look forward to embracing 3D printing as soon as I have the time. I've wanted a model of this since I was about 5, and could have, of course, dedicated the requisite weeks to scratch one...but now, in the same time, I can have every Chrysler-Ghia concept car I could possibly desire...but I'll still need to take each one from raw print to finished model.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Spex84]

 Some good answers here!

3D printing can be rewarding and frustrating in equal measure, just like building traditional model car kits. Here's one of my experiences from the past year, just for the sake of illustration:

-spend many hours 3D modeling an I-beam front axle, poseable spindles and backing plates

-spend more hours exporting the files and adding supports, slicing the file

-test-print the file and experience a partial print failure

-clean the resin vat,spatula the failed print off the FEP film, filter the unused resin to get the broken chunks of hardened resin out, re-level the printer,re-fill the vat.

-spend some hours re-designing the file

-re-support the file and re-slice it

-test print again. Success! Clean an cure the printed parts. Remove the supports.

Now I have an accurate in-scale beam axle with delicate little spindles, spring shackles, very nice.

Test-fit the axle on a model and realize the axle will just bend into a U shape under the weight of the model, introducing a comically terrible camber to the wheels.

Start all over again.

Lol.

[Bills72sj]

I would love to jump into 3D rendering and printing. I have the attention to detail and enough computer savvy to hit the ground running. I have the cash too but alas, I have too small of a house with no basement to set up a printer. Heck, I do not have a space for a dehydrator (though my wife has one for food in the main bathroom). Nonetheless, I have PLENTY of kits to build to last a lifetime without one. As more guys get printers, I will likely get to the point where I will make files and contract someone else to print them for me. I have purchased a number of 3D printed items and have generally been pleased with the results.

[Oldriginal86]

I believe I’m in the middle of the dilemma, too old to jump in to this new end of the hobby but still building enough to embrace the product it offers. I’ll just continue to support the people that offer well made products through this forum.

[TarheelRick]

15 minutes ago, Oldriginal86 said:

I believe I’m in the middle of the dilemma, too old to jump in to this new end of the hobby but still building enough to embrace the product it offers. I’ll just continue to support the people that offer well made products through this forum.

What he said!

[MrObsessive]

2 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Digital art made painting and drawing largely obsolete, and the techniques and eye-hand coordination traditional artists use aren't necessary to turn out beautiful pictures. I think that's sad too, but again, there are still artists who use traditional media, and probably always will be...and it still takes talent to make "art" with a computer interface between artist and product.

Yes, I have a number of files that came from certain designers, but I can still see things in the body shape that aren't quite right. 3D designed/printed doesn't always equal good. One particular design house charges a pretty penny for their files, but they do come in multiple formats-----not just .obj which I use to make files printable.

But..........some of the designs I've seen from this particular outlet are really bad. Wrong proportions, waaay off rooflines.........yet the file is costing $95. ?

So yeah, one still needs a bit of "artistry" to do this........the only difference is we're not using pencil and paper, we're using a keyboard and a mouse.

[Repstock]

While I don't have room for a printer, I spent a few weeks learning a program to create 3D files (I had a knee replaced). In just a few weeks , I was able to draw some parts. With the help of a fellow modeler, some of the drawings were printed, proving they are viable. I am 62, but still willing to learn new things.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Repstock

[OldNYJim]

5 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I have nothing against 3-D printing, and think it's a good thing to an extent, but also a bad thing in some regards for the hobby.

Personally, with my limited tech abilities, and at my age, I'm not going to embark on a whole new endeavor that's going to eat up even more of my precious model building time, but as I said, that's my personal take.

 

As I said, I think it's good for the hobby as it stands now, because it can offer some things that we lack as far as detailed parts.

I love some of Fireball Modelwork's parts and will routinely incorporate them into my builds, for things like finely detailed carburetors, which our hobby has lacked for decades.

Where I feel like 3-D printing can hurt the hobby is by depriving the builder of actually learning how to build.

I understand that it might be much easier to print or buy an extremely highly detailed engine, or engine compartment, or whatever it might be, but at some point, it's going to become just a matter of printing up a show caliber model that will basically require little skill or thought outside of painting and assembly.

Old school modelers, like many of us, who have learned how to shape and mold plain old plastic into something tangible, will no longer have any relevance.

Not that I care, because I'm still going to do things as I always have, but at some point, nobody is going to have to go through the thought process, and the dexterity that it might take to build something yourself anymore, whether it be something as small as a power steering pump, or as large as a complete interior, or for that matter, an entire car, when they can just print up something that's going to be better anyway.

 

I would hate to be a judge at a model contest in the near future, who has to decide between the perfect and astronomically detailed 3-D printed model, versus the guy who spent months and months laboring over scratch made parts that are inferior to the 3-D printed ones.

Do you reward the finished product, regardless of how it was obtained, or do you reward the actual work that went into it.

 

I think that 3-D printing is probably the future of the hobby, without a doubt, but I think that it's proliferation also has some quite sad drawbacks.

 

 

 

 

Steve

That’s a great thoughtful response Steve and I’ve thought about that too.  

As someone with SOME scratchbuilding skills and SOME 3D design skills, I’d like to counter that while in my experience you COULD work through a kit and re-design and print about every part, some stuff is just WAY easier to do the ‘conventional’ way than with a computer.   

For example, say I want to detail up a muscle car firewall, like you’re so proficient at doing.  I COULD take the kit part, scan it, make a 3D model, duplicate all the electrical geegaws and bolts and wiring and whatnot and then print it in super-high resolution…but the much easier method would be to do it how you do.  Sand off molded-in wiring, drill some holes for miniature bolts and detail as you see fit, and I bet you’ll be done a lot faster than if you started from scratch and printed your own pieces.

Printers definitely have their place, and are useful, but they will no more make a exception craftsman out of an average builder than photoetch and resin parts do now.  And for that…I’m kinda thankful!  I WANT to have to do that work and feel proud for having done it

[stitchdup]

For me the printer is just having the aftermarket on my bench. I like volkswagens (and the rest of their brands) and unless its an air cooled van, beetle or golf theres just not that much out there in the aftermarket unlike american cars that are pretty well catered to. Now i have the printer I can have most of them if i want for not too much money. A resin body tends to run around £50-75 but i can generally buy the file for around £7 and print it for less than £3. And theres no international postage on top either. Its not going to replace the plastic in my stash, but it will be a compliment. For example I knew I'd be printing a few audi bodies so I planned ahead and got a case of the etrons to use for interiors and chassis and I have mk6 golf which if it has been done right will take all the undies from a fujimi mk5 golf (the mk6 was just a restyle on the mk5 so the glass is all the same). I still want to customise everything to the point that the 32 I printed has been engine swapped with a file from elsewhere. It not going to replace traditional modelling for me, but hopefully it will compliment it. When it comes to doing drawing I'm firmly in the pencil and paper camp and my phone is still an old nokia cos I have a laptop and camera so why would i need that on a phone (and the battery last over a week on a full charge). Will having the printer stop me buying plastic, well the answer to that is no cos theres kits coming out I've been waiting for and I'm still going to buy them. Sure I could probably find the files and print them myself but a kit has glass and lights which the prints tend not to have, or they have all those bits as part of a one piece body so its not as simple as just printing it out so there will be some scratchbuilding and kit bashing. I guess what I'm trying to say is its more a complimentary tool rather than a replacement at least in my eyes. 

[peteski]

17 hours ago, stitchdup said:

I wasn't trying to put you off.

I suspect that customline was responding more to my post than yours.
I see the same enthusiasm for home-based 3D printing on a model RR forum I participate in, and I'm not saying that I'll never jump in, but not at this time.  Maybe when I retire and have more time, and find more space in my workshop.  But I still think of it being more like a new complete hobby rather than just a way to print parts for my model car hobby.  Also, there are always new technical improvements happening (and equipment prices going down), so by the time I do decide to jump in, who knows what the 3D printing field will look like.  Then there is Shapways for printing your own designs without any mess, but it is not quite the same as having a printer at home.  I can relate to that with my Alps MicroDry printer.  I can design and print decals (usually one-offs) at home rather than getting a 3rd party printing company involved.

[MeatMan]

I've had my resin printer for about a year now and I'm glad I jumped in.

I did get an FDM printer first and I still use it for some things, but for parts, etc it has to be resin.

I disagree with those that think 3D printing diminishes the hobby. The stuff I print I would never attempt to scratch build, and some stuff I scratch build I wouldn't try to design myself. There is minor overlap.

As for having to learn CAD, I have and enjoy it, but its not a necessity. I've downloaded a lot of files for parts from seats to elbows for free, but learning CAD is a good skill to have, and those who think its not a skill are wrong. Not everyone can do it, nor want to. Its not turning a crankshaft on a lathe but its skill none the less.

Get on YouTube and check out some vids. I did a whole lot of research before I jumped in, and I suggest you do the same before deciding to bail or jump in. Good luck whatever you decide.

Edited January 9, 2023 by MeatMan

[Ace-Garageguy]

14 hours ago, MrObsessive said:

But...some of the designs I've seen from this particular outlet are really bad. Wrong proportions, waaay off rooflines...yet the file is costing $95. ?

So yeah, one still needs a bit of "artistry" to do this...the only difference is we're not using pencil and paper, we're using a keyboard and a mouse.

Yup. I've seen a lot of so-called "blueprints" of cars and aircraft published for modelers over the years, and many of them have had little relation to reality. A sense of proportion and line is absolutely necessary (a God-given talent that can be enhanced with experience and effort), as is respect for the numbers that define dimensions of the object being modeled.

Slap-dash no-talent phone-it-in creation of CAD work just doesn't cut it. As MeatMan notes, it IS a serious skill to be respected. 

And any raw print of anything is still going to take a lot of work to make a finished model.

No matter how far advanced 3D printing becomes in our lifetimes, I sincerely doubt it will ever be able to spit out a "contest-quality" model made up of multiple parts all finished in appropriate colors and textures.

3D printing is just another tool in the modeler's box. Granted it's a very powerful game-changing tool, but like EVERY tool, it's only as good as the person wielding it.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy
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