W.I.P. Ferrari 275P - Race & Driver TBD

[Pierre Rivard]

Starting work on a Ferrari 275P. I'm not sure yet which race and driver. This ref picture is of one of the 3 entries at the 64 Nurburgring 1000km. I like it but not set yet as I need what I can do on the decal side and research a bit more about the evolution of the body configuration relative to the kit.

 

[absmiami]

kit ?

 

If you don't build Hill's car - you'll get - the scowl .....

[Pierre Rivard]

And the kit. Good old Monogram kit with an intimidating part count of 38. As impressive as the Monogram body was for the Chaparral 2D this one may need a bit of work to achieve the right look. I have not yet figured out what to do but it looks a little off, and If I go for the Nurburgring look the rear end will have to be very different.

Starting research but to start definitely different wheels are needed, with dedicated front and rear wheel design. I think different tires may be needed too,  narrower and taller profile maybe. Also a need to add detail to the interior.

 

[Eagle36]

Graham Hill is the driver in the picture.  I do not understand your confusion over what race; it is Nurburgring 1964.

[Belugawrx]

I don't know...Hill was disqualified in that race..do the winner..

Scarfiotti / Vaccarella #144

 

 

[Pierre Rivard]

13 hours ago, Eagle36 said:

Graham Hill is the driver in the picture.  I do not understand your confusion over what race; it is Nurburgring 1964.

No confusion from my part but perhaps it's the way I constructed my sentence (english being my second language...). I meant to say that I had not yet decided which driver/race configuration I would build, but I am leaning towards one of the Nurb 1000 entries.

[Pierre Rivard]

13 hours ago, Belugawrx said:

I don't know...Hill was disqualified in that race..do the winner..

Scarfiotti / Vaccarella #144

 

 

At this point open to suggestions. A driver refueling his car makes a strong case. Think Verstappen or Hamilton would do that? ?

[Gramps46]

14 hours ago, Belugawrx said:

I don't know...Hill was disqualified in that race..do the winner..

Scarfiotti / Vaccarella #144

 

 

Check out the roll bar. It would be an interesting touch on a model if you do 0820.  

Edited April 13, 2023 by Gramps46

[absmiami]

https://newatlas.com/monterey-2018-preview-275p-ferrari-le-mans-winner/55954/#gallery:1

 

if you do the winner - dont do it as it finished!

someone - one of the drivers ? - probably leaned their butt on to the wing and mashed it - 

not a good look !!

[Pierre Rivard]

Well...0820 as it finished would be interesting...but ugly!

As I am researching a bit about this line of 250/275/330 P, which frankly I know nothing about, I realize that the back end configuration changed along the way in a bigger way than I thought. I'm not sure what chassis / when the change happened. The kit is clearly based on an earlier version. I might be able to change it but not sure If I could do it justice. Gotta think about this. Advice & info from the experts are most welcome.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Pierre Rivard

[RancheroSteve]

How about doing the Mario Andretti car from Bridgehampton? Mario's first road race, by the way.

https://www.racingsportscars.com/driver/photo/Mario-Andretti-USA.html

I have the UMI decals I can send you.

[Pierre Rivard]

11 hours ago, RancheroSteve said:

How about doing the Mario Andretti car from Bridgehampton? Mario's first road race, by the way.

https://www.racingsportscars.com/driver/photo/Mario-Andretti-USA.html

I have the UMI decals I can send you.

Thank you Steve, I appreciate the offer but I think I'd like to do a version that retains the original body design with the wing/roll bar, so 63-64 campaign. 

[Gramps46]

Lemansdecals has a large selection both on eBay and directly to lemansdecals.com.  And then there is always Pattosplace.com.

[Pierre Rivard]

50 minutes ago, Gramps46 said:

Lemansdecals has a large selection both on eBay and directly to lemansdecals.com.  And then there is always Pattosplace.com.

Thanks Gary, I did not know about these. Now I don't have to fit my build to whatever decals I have in my spares.

[Pierre Rivard]

First item is looking at tires. The kit tires are not good, too wide but mostly they have a very poor thread definition and embossed Goodyear lettering.

I could work around that but digging in the stash I found a set of resin Dunlops from HRM and they look much better if a bit oversized in diameter, by an equivalent 1.3 inch for the fronts and 1.1 for the rears.

Using kit wheels as place holder in pictures and the mock up, until I receive the set I ordered.

Mockup compared to full size car (chassis 0818). The profiles are not identical but reasonably similar. Making a list of items I will need to address on the body.

 

[1959scudetto]

Pierre, I was thinking in a similar way (I have this in my stash) and will possibly use the wheels from Academy/Minicraft's 250 LM (outlaced spokes at the front, correct wheel and tire size).

The 1964 version had an elongated body (especially at the rear) and the windshield has a not-so-steep rake, IIRC. But Ferrari used this '63 body version also in 1964 - I can't await what you are doing with it - we certainly will see a marvellous model again.

[MarkJ]

Oh good, Pierre. I found the w.i.p. I guess the silver car will come later.  Looking forward to watching this one come together.

[Pierre Rivard]

20 hours ago, 1959scudetto said:

Pierre, I was thinking in a similar way (I have this in my stash) and will possibly use the wheels from Academy/Minicraft's 250 LM (outlaced spokes at the front, correct wheel and tire size).

The 1964 version had an elongated body (especially at the rear) and the windshield has a not-so-steep rake, IIRC. But Ferrari used this '63 body version also in 1964 - I can't await what you are doing with it - we certainly will see a marvellous model again.

Great insight Helmut and you got me thinking what I need to do here. I'm honing in on 64 Le Mans for my subject. There were 6 Ferrari P cars in that race and an interesting mix. 3 275P entries, #20 (the winner) and #22 had the 63 body style, #21 had the new 64 body. 3 330P entries, #14 and #19 had the new body but #15 had the 63 body. I scanned the Motorsportimages files and came up with these comparisons. My learning is that the differences between the 63 and 64 bodies were much more substantial than I had originally perceived, different back end, front end & hood, engine air inlets, airfoil, windshield angle etc. A big learning for me.

[Pierre Rivard]

Still working on my tire solution. I re-did my search of tire dimensions on the 275P.

Dunlop rears were 700M15 with a 706mm diameter scaling to 29.4mm at 1/24

The fronts were 500M15 with a 648mm diameter, scaling to 27mm at 1/24

The HRM Dunlop on my mockup are 30mm rear (0.6mm oversized) and 27.9 mm front (0.9mm oversized)

The kit tires are 27.7mm rear (1.7mm undersized) and 25.5 front (1.5mm undersized)

New mock up with both tire sets. Which looks more balanced? The slightly oversized Dunlops or the significantly undersized kit tires?

Go figure...

 

[Gramps46]

If I compare the tires in the race photos above the tires extend above the fender lip as do the HRM tires.  Now having said that I realize the race photos were taken at speed so the body would be lower due to aero downforce.

I also agree with Helmut on the Academy wheels and tires.  rear 28mm, fronts 26mm.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Gramps46

[250 Testa Rossa]

I had the same problem with the Dunlop tires as well. 

[1959scudetto]

 

3 hours ago, Pierre Rivard said:

Great insight Helmut and you got me thinking what I need to do here. I'm honing in on 64 Le Mans for my subject. There were 6 Ferrari P cars in that race and an interesting mix. 3 275P entries, #20 (the winner) and #22 had the 63 body style, #21 had the new 64 body. 3 330P entries, #14 and #19 had the new body but #15 had the 63 body. I scanned the Motorsportimages files and came up with these comparisons. My learning is that the differences between the 63 and 64 bodies were much more substantial than I had originally perceived, different back end, front end & hood, engine air inlets, airfoil, windshield angle etc. A big learning for me.

 

Nice photo collection, Pierre - but one mistake has occurred: # 19 is John Surtees in the 330 P 2 (1965 Le Mans) - see here:

 

[Pierre Rivard]

Thanks Helmut for pointing out. That P2 was listed in the Motorsport Images database of the 64 race and I did not spot the mistake.

Anyhow, I've decided to go for chassis 0816 as the 64 Le Mans winner.

I am also getting a better handle on why the Dunlop tires look so big on my mockup. I measured the body vs specs of the 250/275 P body. The ratio is 1/25.4 on length and both wheelbase and body width are at 1/25. So it's a 1/25 scale kit, not 1/24. The kit tires don't look so good but they are a good size at 1/25 scale.

[Bugatti Fan]

That is one very old kit Pierre. I think it dates back to the 60s when the car raced.

I think that Airfix did one in 1/32nd scale way back.

[1959scudetto]

A few thoughts concerning the wheels:

Looking through my stash of kits, I recently discovered that the old Protar 250 GTO (which has been reissued by Revell AG in 2007) has an misshapened body (will be used as a donor for resin kit), but very delicately molded 3-piece wire wheels. Best thing is: it has even 4 parts for outlaced spokes that are not to be used in this kit ! They certainly can be combined with the Italeri back halfs for the Italeri kit tires as well (but these are of the same size front and rear).

Here are some pictures (at 10 p.m. unfortunately no daylight pics are possible): on the left the Protar wheels - besides the Monogram chrome tree.

The tires are rather crude with Dunlop Racing on the outside and Continental on the other side (fronts) but totally blank (rears):

left: Protar front - right Monogram: 

Here are the rear wheels:

from left to right: Monogram - Protar - Italeri

I'm not sure if it is possible to tone down convincingly the glossy sticky surface of the Protar vinyl tires, you still have the crude side profile...

Maybe I will use the smaller Protar wheels with outside spokes front and Italeris rear.

Italeri: Diameter ca. 27 mm, Protar front ca. 26,5 and Protar rear 27 mm (ca. 27,5 mm with Italeri's rims inserted - fits, but stretches the tire a little bit)