Rattle can lacquer finish questions

[atomicholiday]

This year,  my main goal is to get my painting technique as close to perfect as I can get it.   I've watched every video and read every thread I could find.   To that end,  I've switched paint and now am using mainly three paints.   Duplicate color perfect match, Tamiya TS line,  and Testors extreme lacquer. 

I'm definitely improving, but I'm still getting a little more orange peel than I'm happy with.   I can rub it out with effort but I'd rather improve my painting to make the polishing stage easier. 

I understand what causes orange peel, and I have some theories, but I want your input on a couple of questions. 

My coats are looking really good and smooth immediately after spraying.   The orange peel is happening as the paint cures. 

1. The first coat (tack coat) - with lacquer, understanding that the first coat should be light,  should it still be just heavy enough to look wet and smooth immediately after spraying ,  or should it be more of a dust coat and look very dull?

2. Also related to the tack coat- should the first coat sit longer than that other coats?   How long? 

3. Any other suggestions I might b e missing? 

 

And yes, I know.   "Get an airbrush."  ?I'm working on getting my setup going.   But I want to perfect this step too. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by atomicholiday

[MrMiles]

you shouldnt get orange peal with tamiya paint. how far away are you holding the can?  the others, i have had it happen, but never tamiya

Edited May 25, 2023 by MrMiles

[atomicholiday]

1 hour ago, MrMiles said:

you shouldnt get orange peal with tamiya paint. how far away are you holding the can?  the others, i have had it happen, but never tamiya

I’ve only shot Tamiya once and I did get the best results with it.  Very acceptable.  But I don’t want to limit myself to one brand.  

And to be clear, it’s not terrible.  I can rub it out with 2400 pads.  But I want to get better.  The less wet sanding and polishing I need to do, the better.  Also I recognize that ‘some’ orange peel will probably always be there.
 

Let me give some more details.  I’m spraying about 6-7 inches away and my passes are pretty quick.  After a lot of trial and error, this seems to be getting me closer than anything else I’ve tried.  Holding the can 8-10 usually gives me worse orange peel.  Seems like the paint was drying before it hit the body.

I’m going for thin coats that are just thick enough to be wet.  It looks perfect after each coat, but I get a little orange peel when it cures.

Also, I’m doing about three color coats and three clear coats.  Usually ten minutes apart and 24 hours between color and clear.

 I paint outside, so I wait for days when it’s at least upper 60’s, with humidity below 40 percent.  

I might be completely wrong, but my theory is that it has something to do with time between coats.  Either after the tack coat or maybe between all coats.

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by atomicholiday

[Ace-Garageguy]

Getting great results with rattlecans is more a question of experience and practice-practice-practice than anything else. 

The proverbial "mist coat" is, in my opinion, often misinterpreted to mean a dry coat shot from relatively far away.

For me, this technique has proven to initiate orange peel that no subsequent wet coats will alleviate entirely.

I'll shoot a "medium" wet coat first, see how it lays down, wait 20 minutes or so (with temp and humidity taken into consideration), then shoot (usually) two more full wet coats, 10-20 minutes apart.

Some colors will require more coats for full coverage, and separate body parts should be ON the car for the final color coat or two, to ensure a perfect match between panels. This is even more important on metallics, pearls, and micas.

Duplicolor lacquer is more aggressive ("hotter") than Tamiya and Testors, so there's always the possibility of swelling over bodywork, or areas where the molded surface of the base plastic has been broken, even if the part has been carefully primered repeatedly and block-sanded. This is not a disaster. Just let it dry a little longer, then sand the affected area with 800 or so, wet, wipe it down, and spray another coat. Repeat as necessary.

The hood below swelled repeatedly where the ornament and peak had been removed, but patience won out in the end, and this is 3 full wet coats of a Duplicolor "mica" green, no polishing, just exactly as-shot.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[ctruss53]

I really dislike it when people chime in and tell spray paint people to "just get an airbrush."

I have an airbrush and I actually look for ways to avoid using it. Exterior paint is my least favorite part of model car building because it is probably one of the most important parts, and it is so easy to screw it up.

Now when it comes to spray paint and getting consistantly good results, the first key step is to buy quality products that are designed for scale modes.

This means pay a little extra and buy quality spray can primer from Tamiya or Mr Hobby. Sure, the less expensive larger spray cans at the big box stores from Krylon or Rustoleum will work. And they are probably great primers. The problem is the spray cans they come in are designed for larger projects. The nozzles don't atomize the product as well as we need it for our scale models, and the volume of paint that comes out is too high. You will have much more control over the results if you buy high quality products designed for the application.

Same with paint. Spend the extra money on quality spray can paint. Again, Tamiya and Mr Hobby are at the top of the list here as well. And same goes for the paint. If you try to save money on Kryol or Rustoleum, you are buying product in cans that are not designed for our scale applications.

I stress the importance of this and emphsize that this is step one for consistant high quality spray paint work because if you do not buy high quality hobby grade primers and paints, and you settle for products from Krylon and Rustoleum, you are automatically handicapping your results.

As for the actual process, you have the right idea.

I am not an expert, but this is how I do it. My technique gives me consistently great results. Can you do it other ways, sure. But this works for me every time.

Your first couple coats should be very light for two reasons. First those light coats will dry a little faster, and this is important because you are going to cover them up. And then the other reason is if you apply light coats it is much easier to see what you are doing and this allows you to look for where you need more paint and see where to avoid because paint builds up easier.

If you are going to use a clearcoat I would apply all your base color coats very lightly. Build up the color slowly and make sure it is even. And if you apply light coats, 5-7 minutes between coats is plenty of time.

Apply very light coats until the color appears to be even all over the whole body. It could take 4, 5, or even 6 coats. But that should be ok if the coats are misted on. Once you get the process down, you can probably get the color applied evenly in 3-4 mist coats. If you build up your base color coat with mist coats, it will not have a gloss finish. Even if you use gloss paint, it will end up semi-gloss at best.

Once the color coat is laid down, let it cure for 24 or so. If you are in a hurry, 12 hours might be ok, but I try to wait a whole day at least. Keep in mind there is no such thing as waiting too long. But you can mess it up by applying clear too early.

If the base color coat is visibly textured, wet sand it with 2000 or 3000 grit sand paper. If it is a metallic paint, leave it alone, don't sand it.

Then the clearcoat.  If you are spray painting the clearcoat I cannot recommend a better clear than Mr Super Clear UV Cut from Mr Hobby.  This stuff is so good that I use it on ever model I build and I have an airbrush. I literally have the ability to use any clearcoat out there, but I put my airbrush down and use this spray can clear. It is that good.

Apply the clear in very light mist coats at first, like you did with the paint. Apply like 2-4 very light coats, with 5-7 minutes between coats. The finish will start looking more glossy, but you will see orange peel because you are applying the clear in light coats.

Then after that last light coat of clear has cured for 5-7 minutes, apply a medium wet coat. Then let that sit for about 10 minutes.

Then your final coat of clear should be sprayed on as wet as you can get it without runs.. You will really see the gloss in this last wet coat. And it will lay down pretty smooth, but there will still be a little orange peel because of the texture in the coats below.

Now that the clear is on there, let it cure for at least 48 hours. Again, the longer you can let it cure the better. I try to let it sit for a week. And I have let some projects sit for a month. You can't let it cure too long. But the longer you let it sit the better.

Then polish it out.

EDIT:  I should also add that I also take the mist coat approach because it greatly reduces any issues there might be with "hot" paints. Applying mist coats and allowing time to cure reduces any sort of "disagreements" between types and brands.

AND Ace makes a good point.  When I say mist coat, that doesn't mean hold the can further away from the model and allow the paint to fall onto the kit like a dust.  I still hold the can close. To mist I mean move that can fast. Make sure you are not applying a heavy coat.

Edited May 25, 2023 by ctruss53

[Ace-Garageguy]

ctruss's post makes the important point that there is no one right way to get great rattlecan finishes.

His procedure is similar to mine, but differs in several specifics as well.

EXPERIENCE and PRACTICE, paying close attention to the results...with your brain in gear...will let you develop procedures that work well for you, every time.

And don't expect cheapo hardware-store or big-box store rattlecans to produce outstanding results by just hosing the stuff on. You often CAN turn out show-quality jobs with el cheapo paint, and sometimes a particular color simply isn't available in anything else.

But using rattlecan products not intended specifically for modeling is always going to take careful experimentation, with each different product, to get top-quality results.

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, ctruss53 said:

buy quality products that are designed for scale modes.

Again, as with everything else, you would think that this would be your best approach, but there are many variables.

 

First, paints such as Testors are designed for scale models, but are in my opinion, some of the worst paints you can use for models, especially the enamels.

I, like pretty much every modeler that have been building for a long time, have had experience with these paints, and as a general rule, I've had more problems using a good number of Testors paints than any other.

On the flip side, some of the most successful projects that I've done, were finished with Duplicolor automotive spray paints.

 

Second, If you're not willing to broaden your horizons away from paints designed specifically for models, you're limiting yourself a great deal.

While Tamiya and Testors, and some others, offer a wide variety of colors, there is a vast pallet of colors out there that you're avoiding basically because you don't know how to use them.

I never rule out anything.

Modeling is a continuous learning experience from the first time you pick up a tube of glue, until the day that you stop building for whatever reason, or at least it should be.

Anybody that thinks that they have it all figured out, and know everything, even the absolute best in the hobby, are full of you know what if that's their attitude.

 

2 hours ago, ctruss53 said:

The nozzles don't atomize the product as well as we need it for our scale models

I don't subscribe to this statement at all.

 

Some of the best spray can nozzles in existence are Duplicolor "fan spray" nozzles.

Some of the worst are Testors.

Just my opinion of course, but I have never found a better spray nozzle, (including Tamiya) than Duplicolor.

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

 

[atomicholiday]

Gentlemen.   This is exactly what I was looking for.   There are a lot of threads,  videos, and I've even read a couple of books on this subject.   But the problem is that frequently terms or step are a little vague. 

Things like 'tack coat' and mist aren't defined well.   Or details like how far to hold the can away, or time between coats aren't usually answered. 

You guys are the first I've come across to go into real detail.   And I get the impression that between the details and lots of practice, that's where success lies. 

I thank you all for your replies.   

This topic comes up so frequently.   And the finish is arguably the most important part of any build.   I'm surprised there isn't a topic pinned already. 

Now if you'll excuse me,  I have a hood to go paint. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by atomicholiday

[peteski]

The problem with pined threads is that one: there are already plenty on the first page of this section, and two: it seems that most members somehow fail to look at them, and start a new thread about the subject already covered in a pinned thread.

[Miatatom]

14 hours ago, atomicholiday said:

1. The first coat (tack coat) - with lacquer, understanding that the first coat should be light,

Any time I do this step, regardless whether it's out of the can or airbrushed, I get orange peel.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Miatatom

[Dave G.]

Some of my nicest but now 50 yo paint jobs were rattle can enamel from Pactra ( long gone brand now).

Get in a little closer and slow down your final passes in particular. Also let each coat flash off.  This flash off concerns lacquers and acrylics both. With enamel I keep shooting till done. Acrylic needs the flashed off base coats so the next will stick. Lacquer needs them to build on. There is a difference: the acrylic will basically slide if you don't have the flashed base coats. Lacquer deepens the color. You basically have to work at making lacquer run though but with metallics if your coat is too wet to the point of heavy you can get the metallic particles or fleck running within the coat before the coat can begin flashing, causing a mottled look . All of this is acquired skill, at least in terms of repeatability.

With a rattle can your limiting factor is one spray pattern one volume of paint. In all painting you need to work with distance of passes and speed of passes but with rattle cans those are the only variable, besides heating the product. I won't get into the added flexibility of airbrushing and how to of all that since you didn't ask except there is that capability on the very first coat to get a very light thin smooth layer to build upon.. You need to find your happy medium with rattle cans.

I think you will find that Tamiya lacquer and Duplicolor lacquer are two entirely different lacquers with different solvents and thinners, retarders etc. Thus one technique won't work for both. And that's just the way it is.

[ctruss53]

12 hours ago, Miatatom said:

Any time I do this step, regardless whether it's out of the can or airbrushed, I get orange peel.

Yes. This is true.

But it is nearly impossible to avoid orange peel. No matter how perfoect your paint job is or what technique you use, there is always the need to polish out the paint for ultimate smoothness and shine.

So since there is always going to be orange peel. And since you are always going to have to polish out the paint. I prefer to build up the color in light coats. This way I have the most control over the results. And I can consistently get nice even paint application.

[Ace-Garageguy]

There is, however, an often overlooked problem with shooting metallics too dry, and "building up the color in light coats", both on models AND REAL CARS.

Many people just don't see it.

Shoot metallics dry, and you'll get a slightly mottled texture that, when clear-coated, is magnified.

Again, apparently the majority of people just don't see it, but it's not what the paint is SUPPOSED to look like, and to me looks like Fido's backside.

[ctruss53]

7 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

There is, however, an often overlooked problem with shooting metallics too dry, and "building up the color in light coats", both on models AND REAL CARS.

Many people just don't see it.

Shoot metallics dry, and you'll get a slightly mottled texture that, when clear-coated, is magnified.

Again, apparently the majority of people just don't see it, but it's not what the paint is SUPPOSED to look like, and to me looks like Fido's backside.

Good point.

However. I have had great luck with spraying metallics on dry. I did a lowrider and laying the metallic silver bascoat down dry seemed to help the flakes in the paint "stand up" better.  It kind of made it look more sparkly when I laid down the clear coat.

I guess this brings us back to your other point.

PRACTICE. EXPERIMENT. TEST. On spoons or throw away car bodies.   

[Ace-Garageguy]

5 minutes ago, ctruss53 said:

Good point.

However. I have had great luck with spraying metallics on dry. I did a lowrider and laying the metallic silver bascoat down dry seemed to help the flakes in the paint "stand up" better.  It kind of made it look more sparkly when I laid down the clear coat.

I guess this brings us back to your other point.

PRACTICE. EXPERIMENT. TEST. On spoons or throw away car bodies.   

Yes, there's no question that knowledgeable and intentional shooting of metallics 'dry' can indeed make the flakes stand up, and the finish "pop" more...but it's a difficult skill to master, especially on real cars where any intentional manipulation of how the flakes lie can very easily lead to streaks and blotches.  

[Dave G.]

I personally never liked the look of dry metallic lacquer coats, regardless how much clear it's buried in.. I want the fleck in the film not standing up. There is a point of wetness to a coat where the metallic fleck suspend as the coat flashes. They don't stand up nor sink out of sight. I do this best with light wet coats not dry. The last couple coats can be even wetter and still hold up if there is a good base.

Whatever you do in the color coat will be magnified with a high gloss clear over it.

[D.Pack]

Am a rattlecan user, some great info here.

But what if one must wetsand between coats? For orange peel or debris.

What's the minimum grade for sanding to so that the recoat will easily cover the sanding scratches. 3000, 4000 or down to 12000?

'I sand between coats' or 'sand it out' is only part useful info.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

9 minutes ago, D.Pack said:

But what if one must wetsand between coats? For orange peel or debris.

What's the minimum grade for sanding to so that the recoat will easily cover the sanding scratches. 3000, 4000 or down to 12000?

800 wet is fine.

But if you have "pebbly" metallic, you need to sand it flat, then shoot one good wet coat...assuming you want the color to look like it's supposed to look.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[ctruss53]

6 minutes ago, D.Pack said:

Am a rattlecan user, some great info here.

But what if one must wetsand between coats? For orange peel or debris.

What's the minimum grade for sanding to so that the recoat will easily cover the sanding scratches. 3000, 4000 or down to 12000?

'I sand between coats' or 'sand it out' is only part useful info.

 

DISCLAIMER:

I am not an expert. I could be doing this wrong. But I don't do any sanding until all the paint and clear coat are applied and cured. The only exception to this is if the base coat is REALLY rough for whatever reason.

[bluenote]

great info here!  I almost always use rattle cans. 

The one problem I have, is the paint seems to not cover on high edges and/or door panels, etc.  I think I need to do more mist coats first, then the heavier wet coat.  I think I go on too heavy to start

 

[D.Pack]

52 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

800 wet is fine.

But if you have "pebbly" metallic, you need to sand it flat, then shoot one good wet coat...assuming you want the color to look like it's supposed to look.

800 wet? Wow! 

Currently I am sanding this car down to 2400, so will stop here. Am keen to complete some painting jobs. Have also learned of primer pinholing whilst working on this. I had dozens of them.

Have to say, am finding that a sanded colour coat is better to work than the actual primer. Surface problems are much easier to see.

[D.Pack]

11 minutes ago, bluenote said:

great info here!  I almost always use rattle cans. 

The one problem I have, is the paint seems to not cover on high edges and/or door panels, etc.  I think I need to do more mist coats first, then the heavier wet coat.  I think I go on too heavy to start

 

Could be some high points you can't see with a matt finish primer.

My Nascar bodies, their wheelarches have some uneven edges that I can ONLY see when I sand down the gloss colour coat, always a glossy strip in-between the matt.

[Dave G.]

I just want to mention one thing before I'm done with the thread. That has to do with the sets of polishing pads, the little square ones you may be scuffing . In terms of grit they are not each or all created equal compared to wet and dry name brand paper. A given grit isn't always the same in another brand. It probably has to do with international standards on such things. So for instance you may think you're scuffing with 1500 and in something else that may be more like 600 or 800. Somewhere along the way I read an article on this but also by experience I know there can be quite the difference sometimes, especially with no name Amazon brands.

Norton 800 wet and dry will be 800 though. Or 1000, 1200 etc. And it's all ok as long as you're working it within your own system and understand what smooth is or coarse with your own pads. Just when we start telling others do such and , well it might not match with their system.

Have a great weekend everyone, I'm done here for now !

[atomicholiday]

So let’s say you shoot a color coat (or clear) and start to get orange peel.  I assume you should stop there, let it cure, and wet sand.  
When you spray the next coat after sanding, should it be treated like a tack coat again?  Or should you just spray like you already did a tack coat?  

[StevenGuthmiller]

6 hours ago, ctruss53 said:

DISCLAIMER:

I am not an expert. I could be doing this wrong. But I don't do any sanding until all the paint and clear coat are applied and cured. The only exception to this is if the base coat is REALLY rough for whatever reason.

I agree.

I think that often times people tend to over think, or over work their paint jobs.

I don’t remember ever having anyone criticize one of my paint jobs, and I almost always forgo all of the between coats sanding, unless an obvious blemish appears.

Like you, I spray as many as 5 coats each of primer, color, and clear without ever touching a piece of sand paper until after the final coat of clear.

I will usually have a very minimal amount of orange peel, or otherwise slightly rough finish that needs addressing, but as I always plan on polishing every build anyway, I expect that a small amount of elbow grease is going to be required.

It’s my philosophy that you can sand between every coat, at which point, you’ll probably be required to do some finish polishing anyway, or you can do it once at the end.

Either way, if you really want a top notch paint job, some sanding and polishing is going to be required at some point anyway.

It’s just a matter of when you decide to do it.

 

 

 

 

Steve