Why you DON'T want a Ford 3-cylinder 1 liter Ecoboost

[Ace-Garageguy]

The beyond stupid "wet" timing belts are reason enough to steer clear of anything with these engines. As the belts inevitably deteriorate, the debris clogs the ridiculously undersized oil pickup screen, compromising oil delivery. Irrefutable evidence of same being the failed turbo bearing, and the wear on the rod bearings. In general, oil is the enemy of toothed "rubber" timing belts, period, so a "wet" timing belt is a very poor engineering solution. A chain, on the other hand, would last hundreds of thousands of miles....but wait...there's more.

Another case of "why follow industry-accepted designs that have worked well for decades, when we can reinvent everything to be mo' better because we have never actually seen how anything wears or fails in reality, and don't care to know?"

 

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Dave Van]

NOT a ECP-BOOST fan. My son bought a new 2016 Mustang with the 4 cyl ECO motor.  After 2 factory paid for engine replacements in one year he traded it for a Roush V-8 supercharged 2016 which he still has and has been perfect. 

When I bought my 2016 F-150 they wanted to sell me a ECO version.......I went for the 3.5 NA  engine which again has been perfect. The ECO thing is much more a AD thing than proven tech. 

[stitchdup]

one of my friends had a fiesta with the previous 3 cylinder engine (valencia i think it was called). That engine was a miricle of engineering. My mate was the type that never did any mainenance and would send it out to me for mot prep. More than once it arrived with a dry rad and next to no oil but it just did not die. The car eventually got scrapped cos he would put his surf board on the front seat so the floor rotted away. I have no idea why or how that engine lasted so long

[Mark]

I'd rather have a "too big" engine that loafs along much of the time, as opposed to "sending a boy to do a man's job".  A turbo is fine for a momentary power boost for passing or going up hills, but using it to crutch up a too-small engine isn't going to end well.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Quote from a dealership mechanic: As a Ford tech for a little over 2 years, this is the 6th time I've personally seen this happen, not including the rest of my shop. What we hear is either 1. The tensioner itself fails and there is no longer any oil pressure, or 2. The timing belt loses every single tooth (likely still tensioner failure) and becomes smooth and of course, no oil pressure. Most cars will keep driving like this until the "Low Oil Pressure" warning crops up, at which point we get it. There is no recall, but ford issued a TSB which directs to replace the long block and turbo. Which is why they are in such high demand. Obviously just a horrible engine design.

[ksnow]

Reminds me of the timing chain failures on the GM DOHC 3.6 VVT engine. Chains were "stretching" with as little as 10,000 miles.

[Ace-Garageguy]

As an aside, I have a Geo Metro 3-cylinder 1-liter convertible with 250,000 miles on the clock. A friend bought it new, I maintained it since day one, then bought the salvage from the insurance company after it was an "economic total" following a light front end hit.

Little car ran fine until 160,000 miles, when it burned an exhaust valve. Easy fix. It also has a dry timing belt, very easily accessed for scheduled interval replacement, which was always done on time. Ran Mobil 1 full syn since day one too. When I did the valves at 160k, there was no measurable wear in the cylinder bores, and the honing pattern was still visible.

When I pulled the rod bearings to look at them, assuming that they'd be down to copper at 250k miles, they looked like they had at least another 30k left in 'em. Again, no measurable wear on the crank journals.

Though not fast, or even quick, it will easily "keep up with traffic", topping out at around 85 MPH...while returning about 40MPG on the highway.

EDIT: Little car's previous owner drove it pretty much flat out all the time in heavy Atlanta traffic, where speed limits on the interstates were usually ignored. So it's not like it lasted because it was babied. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[1972coronet]

This whole undersized-engine-with-an-oxidiser influx reminds me of the first Malaise Era  - but worse. That Fœcal Boost setup has been bird cage lining since day one ! Throw a CVT behind it, and prepare yourself for a tiny-engine-in-a-4,000-lbs.-car "performance" .

Junk.

This is all to quell the outdated C.A.F.E. standards from c.1979. Something which pickup trucks/vans/commercial vehicles should be 100% exempt from. 

Geo Metro -in all of its iterations- was a fantastic car ! I've operated a number of them throughout the years -- drove the snot out of 'em ! To paraphrase 'Easy Andy' from Taxi Driver and the selling of guns to Travis Bickle : "This gun'll hammer nails on point all day, then come home a slice tomatoes." 

[espo]

Didn't Ford used to much their motto, "Ford has a better idea" ?  

[OldNYJim]

I recently learned about Ford's 2-part lug-nut design that they used on vehicles for over a decade, including mine.  Local tire shop told me that I had 'swollen nuts' [their words] and offered to switch them out for $800.

What happens is, apparently, over time they swell up and distort to the point where the wrench in your trunk won't work to take them off if you get a flat.  Why Ford invented a new type of nut after making perfectly acceptable lug nuts for the best part of 100 years, escapes me, but it's apparently a common issue.

$20 and 90 minutes of my own time, problem solved (or at least, remedied for now)...and the tire shop was right, they had definitely deformed.

Somewhat related - guy at work has a new Bronco and he got a TSB notification from the local dealer about under-tightened lug nuts from the factory on his vehicle which could result in, unsurprisingly, loose wheels ? 

Edited June 16, 2023 by CabDriver

[Tabbysdaddy]

Some of my GMs have two part lug nuts. The steel nut rusts under the aluminum skin, which distorts them or if you pull off the skin a standard lug wrench doesn't fit well.

[Dave Van]

2 hours ago, CabDriver said:

I recently learned about Ford's 2-part lug-nut design that they used on vehicles for over a decade, including mine.  Local tire shop told me that I had 'swollen nuts' [their words] and offered to switch them out for $800.

What happens is, apparently, over time they swell up and distort to the point where the wrench in your trunk won't work to take them off if you get a flat.  Why Ford invented a new type of nut after making perfectly acceptable lug nuts for the best part of 100 years, escapes me, but it's apparently a common issue.

$20 and 90 minutes of my own time, problem solved (or at least, remedied for now)...and the tire shop was right, they had definitely deformed.

Somewhat related - guy at work has a new Bronco and he got a TSB notification from the local dealer about under-tightened lug nuts from the factory on his vehicle which could result in, unsurprisingly, loose wheels ? 

What cars have these???? thx

[OldNYJim]

10 minutes ago, Dave Van said:

What cars have these???? thx

A lot...mostly 2000-2015 models, apparently.  This article doesn't specifically mention Mustangs, but mine has the two-part nuts they mention...

Some further reading: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15339991/swollen-lug-nuts-are-costing-ford-drivers-time-and-money-lawsuit-claims/

 

[Tabbysdaddy]

Here's the ones on my Chevy van. One missing the cover, lower left you can see the cover splitting from the rust.

[Ace-Garageguy]

3 hours ago, CabDriver said:

Why Ford invented a new type of nut after making perfectly acceptable lug nuts for the best part of 100 years, escapes me...

Because all the hot-hip-happenin'-rainbow-haired-APP-savvy-CAD-jockeys just KNOW they can do better than the stupid boomers and their parents...even though only one in 20 can even change a tire. But they all got trophies, so that proves it.

I mean, come on, man. I'll say it again. You know...the thing.  

[Mark]

Only one reason manufacturers use those two-piece lug nuts...they're CHEAPER.  They've been using them for years.  Condensation gets between sheath and nut, causes rust, expands the inner part a little bit spreading the sheath.  Throw in freezing moisture in certain areas, and top it off with the grease monkeys using the rattle gun to loosen and tighten them.  I replaced them with solid nuts on a couple of vehicles, current car had solid ones as built.

[SSNJim]

4 hours ago, CabDriver said:

I recently learned about Ford's 2-part lug-nut design that they used on vehicles for over a decade, including mine.  Local tire shop told me that I had 'swollen nuts' [their words] and offered to switch them out for $800.

What happens is, apparently, over time they swell up and distort to the point where the wrench in your trunk won't work to take them off if you get a flat.  Why Ford invented a new type of nut after making perfectly acceptable lug nuts for the best part of 100 years, escapes me, but it's apparently a common issue.

Similar story with our 2018 Escape. The dealer wouldn't rotate the tires anymore until we had them changed (at 40,000 miles). We went round and round with them, and ended up buying a set at a local auto parts store. They were happy to change them out for us at the next oil change/tire rotation. 

I never understood how a metal lug nut in the Mid-Atlantic climate could "swell". Obviously there is something I don't quite understand about modern lug nut technology since I've never heard of lug nut swell. I've never taken a wheel off the Escape.

No issues with our 2007 Mustang.

[Ace-Garageguy]

8 minutes ago, Mark said:

Only one reason manufacturers use those two-piece lug nuts...they're CHEAPER...

I've heard that argument, but consider the extra manufacturing steps and material required to make and install that ridiculous stainless cover, as opposed to just shiny-plating the simple nut.

I don't buy it. Maybe somebody's cost analysis using "new-math"?

[Mark]

The one-piece units would have to be better finished, then plated or at least powder coated.  Two-piece, stamping for sheath has to be decent, lug nut underneath can look like krap as long as it works.

[1972coronet]

Things such as pseudo-plated lug nuts, and any other half-arsed CAD-cookie-cutter design, can be summed up in one... word... Afftupfftuhblugh-ptf-fph...  

[sfhess]

It doesn't help when guys at tire stores beat the BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH out of lug nuts with their air wrenches.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

11 minutes ago, sfhess said:

It doesn't help when guys at tire stores beat the BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH out of lug nuts with their air wrenches.

 

Yup...and ever see one of 'em, just ONCE, use a torque wrench?

[1972coronet]

13 minutes ago, sfhess said:

It doesn't help when guys at tire stores beat the BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH out of lug nuts with their air wrenches.

 

 

1 minute ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Yup...and ever see one of 'em, just ONCE, use a torque wrench?

I've always insisted that they use a torque wrench for the final torqueing . But, then again, I avoid chain ( Firestone, et al. ) tyre stores like the plague. 

One of the most common items I've seen 'abused' is the torque-to-yield drum and rotor retainer nut(s). The warning is even cast-into the retainer ! In bold letters : DO NOT REUSE ! SINGLE USE ONLY !

Then there are the clowns who reuse TTY head bolts...

[sfhess]

In my experience the small turbocharged engines have to work so hard that fuel mileage is reduced in real-world driving, plus in many cases they require premium fuel.  But they get real good MPG numbers in the EPA lab.

[espo]

Not sure if my experience with the lug nut issues is the same, but. My issue had to do with a Grand Prix that had the polished wheels. The Lugnuts had a shiny aluminum cover wrapped around the actual Lugnut more for show than anything else. The problem really started when I had new tires installed and the air gun jockey used a socket that was slightly larger than what was required. This started rounding off the corners of the outer aluminum cover. The problem really became apparent when the outer cover started spinning around the Lugnut that held the wheels too the hub. At this point the only way to get the wheels off was to chisel the outer cover off the Lugnut so that a proper sized socket could be used. The tire shop did finally offer to buy new Lugnuts from the dealer to replace all of the ones they had jacked up. I showed them a less expensive way was to just buy a complete set of new solid chrome Lugnuts for all of the wheels and it was still less than a few OEM Pontiac Lugnuts. Sometimes the stylist designing vehicles should consult with the engineers before a final design goes into production, and shop foramen should make sure the guys in the shop use the correct size socket before rounding off a half a dozen or so Lugnuts.