Tamiya panel line accent for weathering question

[atomicholiday]

I’m a big fan of this stuff.  I also really like Vallejo Metal Color acrylic for detail painting.  Here’s my problem.

Applying the panel line accent over the Vallejo works fine.  But frequently, I need to go back over it with a thinner to tone down the effect.  I was told to use enamel thinner for this. 
The enamel thinner can easily remove the Vallejo too though, and that’s a problem.
Is there a better way to clean up excess Tamiya panel line accent, without removing the Vallejo acrylic?   Or should I coat the acrylic with something before applying the Tamiya?
 

Edited November 9, 2023 by atomicholiday

[gotnitro?]

I would seal the first coat under a gloss coat then apply your panel line accent. Then clean up excess w thinner, this should protect the other layers

[espo]

Another consideration would be to see if one of the other colors Tamiya offers in their Accent Color line might be a darker shade of the body color of your build. I have used their Gray color instead of Black and it looks more realistic, to my eyes anyway.  

[Ace-Garageguy]

I was concerned with this potential problem until I honed my skills re-scribing and deepening panel lines.

Now that I've got it pretty much mastered, I'm frankly not really seeing a need to use accent colors for this...or at the most, a wash of solvent-stable black in the deepened lines, over the last primer coat, just prior to paint.

I believe this is essentially the technique recommended by Cruz, and his results are outstanding by any standard.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[atomicholiday]

I might have mis-led you guys some.  I'm not using the panel line accent for panel lines.  I'm using it more for weathering.  Especially things like engines and undercarriages.   Stuff like this.

Edited November 9, 2023 by atomicholiday

[StevenGuthmiller]

I'm with Bill and Marcos on the panel line question.

It's become evident to me that scribing deeply pretty much eliminates any need for darkening panel lines, and in fact, looks more realistic than using a panel line accent.

These panel lines had no accent added whatsoever.

Just deeply scribed, and left at that.

 

 

 

 

As far as weathering goes, It's my opinion that there are a great number of other techniques that can be used to better represent weathering.

I think what you're accomplishing here Jeremy is not exactly what I would consider "weathering" but more just trying to add a little extra "depth" to the part, rather than "age" or "use".

When I think of weathering, I think of adding a little, (or a lot of) extra oil, dirt, road grime, rust, etc.

 

I've discovered that a little playing around with some simple and cheap acrylic craft paints works extremely well for various degrees of "weathering".

 

This Coronet's engine and chassis were weathered very lightly with acrylic craft paint to represent light use.

 

 

 

 

 

The engine and chassis on this Bonneville were weathered a bit more heavily with the same products to represent a vehicle of a few years of age, and 20,000-30,000 miles of use.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

[Bills72sj]

Steve's results speak for themselves. Panel liner has a mild solvent effect on some surfaces which is OK in many instance. Though as you have discovered, it also takes a solvent to clean it up. If you find/create an equivalent acrylic-based home brew, then water will be your clean up. Alternately, clear acrylic coat your part(s) before weathering to act a sealing agent that is resistant to a solvent based clean up.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Bills72sj
spelling

[jaymcminn]

I've used the Tamiya Panel Liner quite a bit, and the solvent is pretty aggressive for acrylic undercoats. A shot of clear lacquer will help to protect the finish. 

Since you already use Vallejo's excellent Metal Colors, have you thought about trying their washes? The washes are designed to dry slowly which permits them to be manipulated over the drying period for a variety of effects. Even when dry, they can be removed from highlights with water or a mild alcohol solution and a craft swab. The 1/12 Bugatti engine below was done entirely with Vallejo Metal Colors and washes...

Edited November 11, 2023 by jaymcminn

[atomicholiday]

22 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I think what you're accomplishing here Jeremy is not exactly what I would consider "weathering" but more just trying to add a little extra "depth" to the part, rather than "age" or "use".

 

Exactly!  You've said it much better than I did when trying to get my objective across.  On most of my builds, that's the goal for me.  I do mostly out-of-the-box builds, but I'm after as much realism as I can obtain within that realm.   

Someday I may (probably will) start adding scratch-built and after-market parts.  But I'm not ready for that step yet.  I want to see just how good I can make what's in the box look for now.

So adding depth.  Take the pic I posted of my Z28 engine, specifically the intake manifold.  If I had left it alone after painting it aluminum, to my eyes, it would look toy-like and lifeless.  Add some shading to the recesses and it would look much better, adding depth.  Where I think mine falls on its face it this.  Notice the dark areas in the recesses.  Firstly, they're too dark.  secondly, the edges are very defined, almost like it was filthy, and someone came along and wiped off the surfaces and left crud in the corners (actually, that's exactly what did happen?).  I think it looks artificial.

By contrast, look at the pics of the excellent model posted by Jason.  While this is definitely more weathered than what I'm after, the techniques would be the same I believe.  Same with the models posted by Steve.  

I think I'm going to try a couple of things.  If I'm off base, feel free to tell me your thoughts.  

1) This is a tip I picked up on another forum.  Prime everything that gets painted with Vallejo Metal Color in black.  It takes the color much better when primed, looks a bit better and seems to hold up better too.  I haven't tried black primer yet, but that by itself might solve a few problems and add some depth on its own as long as I go light on the Metal Color.  Win, win.

2) Not sure on this one yet, but I'm leaning towards clear coating the Vallejo prior to adding any weathering agents.

3) I'm definitely going to try out some craft acrylics.  I also like the idea of trying out the Vallejo washes.  I wasn't aware of those.  

 

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions.  I always find it helpful to post stuff like this on here.

 

 

 

[Bernard Kron]

I've used Tamiya Panel Line with good results to imitate bare sheet metal surfaces, For bringing out engraving on aluminum parts it works well but should be quickly wiped away from flat and exterior surfaces while applying it unless you want to darken those areas. Here are some examples:

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, atomicholiday said:

 

Exactly!  You've said it much better than I did when trying to get my objective across.  On most of my builds, that's the goal for me.  I do mostly out-of-the-box builds, but I'm after as much realism as I can obtain within that realm.   

Someday I may (probably will) start adding scratch-built and after-market parts.  But I'm not ready for that step yet.  I want to see just how good I can make what's in the box look for now.

So adding depth.  Take the pic I posted of my Z28 engine, specifically the intake manifold.  If I had left it alone after painting it aluminum, to my eyes, it would look toy-like and lifeless.  Add some shading to the recesses and it would look much better, adding depth.  Where I think mine falls on its face it this.  Notice the dark areas in the recesses.  Firstly, they're too dark.  secondly, the edges are very defined, almost like it was filthy, and someone came along and wiped off the surfaces and left crud in the corners (actually, that's exactly what did happen?).  I think it looks artificial.

By contrast, look at the pics of the excellent model posted by Jason.  While this is definitely more weathered than what I'm after, the techniques would be the same I believe.  Same with the models posted by Steve.  

I think I'm going to try a couple of things.  If I'm off base, feel free to tell me your thoughts.  

1) This is a tip I picked up on another forum.  Prime everything that gets painted with Vallejo Metal Color in black.  It takes the color much better when primed, looks a bit better and seems to hold up better too.  I haven't tried black primer yet, but that by itself might solve a few problems and add some depth on its own as long as I go light on the Metal Color.  Win, win.

2) Not sure on this one yet, but I'm leaning towards clear coating the Vallejo prior to adding any weathering agents.

3) I'm definitely going to try out some craft acrylics.  I also like the idea of trying out the Vallejo washes.  I wasn't aware of those.  

 

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions.  I always find it helpful to post stuff like this on here.

 

 

 

There are of course any number of ways to achieve what you're looking for.

My thought is that how the base coats are applied is secondary to the materials used for the weathering itself.

 

I do apply clear to some of the parts prior to weathering, although that's designed more towards protecting the parts from damage, or from the paint rubbing off during handling, than it is to facilitate how the weathering agents work.

That of course might be more important if the materials that you're using for weathering are solvent based rather than water based.

 

Just my opinion, but I believe that your problem with the panel line accent that you're using looking too "dark" or "demarcated" is mostly due to the fact that it's stark black.

My suggestion would be to use a less harsh color to begin with.

This is part of the reason why I find flat acrylic paint to be so useful.

I mix a dark "oily" brown for the "base" of the weathering.

 

The second advantage to using craft paints is that you can brush on a thin wash of the color over the entire part, and then after it has dried, you can use a slightly dampened Q-tip to lightly "roll" over the surface.

This leaves a very thin mottled film over the entire surface of the part instead of just dark pools in the recesses, which helps eliminate those stark demarcations.

 

Another pro of the craft paint is of course that it's water based, so that you can manipulate it much easier with damp Q-tips to get the effect that you desire, and it's not so permanent, so if you don't like the effect, you can just wash it off and do it again.

But my experience has been that you really can't mess it up, and it's very easy to vary the degree of the weathering that you want to achieve.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Bernard Kron]

17 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

...The second advantage to using craft paints is that you can brush on a thin wash of the color over the entire part, and then after it has dried, you can use a slightly dampened Q-tip to lightly "roll" over the surface.

This leaves a very thin mottled film over the entire surface of the part instead of just dark pools in the recesses, which helps eliminate those stark demarcations.

Another pro of the craft paint is of course that it's water based, so that you can manipulate it much easier with damp Q-tips to get the effect that you desire, and it's not so permanent, so if you don't like the effect, you can just wash it off and do it again.

But my experience has been that you really can't mess it up, and it's very easy to vary the degree of the weathering that you want to achieve.

...

Beautifully realistic work on those motors, Steve. I think the point you make in the above quote is worth emphasizing. Most techniques involve applying materials that mimic the "real life" events that create it, such as using rust colored weathering powders or dark penetrating washes to imitate grime and grease. Quite often they can be modulated as you apply them and then remove portions of them. The key point is that, more often the not, success in achieving your desired effect has far less to do with how you start, or even what you start front, than it has to do with when you stop, which, ideally, is when you recognize that you have made your goal. This, of course, is more easily said than done. Weathering is a dynamic process with a virtually endless number of ways of achieving it. It's very satisfying when you see that "picture in your mind" repeated in the object you've been working on.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Bernard Kron

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Bernard Kron said:

Beautifully realistic work on those motors, Steve. I think the point you make in the above quote is worth emphasizing. Most techniques involve applying materials that mimic the "real life" events that create it, such as using rust colored weathering powders or dark penetrating washes to imitate grime and grease. Quite often they can be modulated as you apply them and then remove portions of them. The key point is that, more often the not, success in achieving your desired effect has far less to do with how you start, or even what you start front, than it has to do with when you stop, which, ideally, is when you recognize that you have made your goal. This, of course, is more easily said than done. Weathering is a dynamic process with a virtually endless number of ways of achieving it. It's very satisfying when you see that "picture in your mind" repeated in the object you've been working on.

To be honest, I have no clue what I'm doing!

 

I have very little experience at all with weathering of any kind on models.

I just got to the point where I was tired of producing the perfect, straight out of the restoration shop, or off of the assembly line, model cars over and over again.

I thought to myself that the only time that you EVER see a vintage car like that, is when it's some trailer queen at a car show.

It just didn't equate to real life to me anymore.

I wanted to recreate the ACTUAL look of a car that you would see on the street.

I really have no interest in building the typical "barn find"/"junk yard dog"/"rat rod" type stuff that you see quite frequently today.

I still wanted to build nice, shiny classic cars.

But something that you almost never see is a combination of the two genres.

A well maintained, but well driven vehicle that you would see in most classic car enthusiast's garages.

In most cases, builds are either to one extreme or the other, with almost no representation of what MOST vehicles would look like if they were actually driven.

 

So, I got out some acrylic paint and just experimented a little to see what I could come up with without having to go out and buy a couple hundred bucks worth of weathering dedicated materials.

I was surprised to find that it was actually not terribly difficult to achieve fairly convincing results with nothing other than paint, and I found that I actually enjoyed the process.

 

I don't think you're ever going to see me building a rat rod, but I'm pretty confident that you'll be seeing this fusion of genres from me for quite some time into the future.

 

 

 

Steve

Edited November 12, 2023 by StevenGuthmiller

[atomicholiday]

On 11/12/2023 at 1:07 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

Just my opinion, but I believe that your problem with the panel line accent that you're using looking too "dark" or "demarcated" is mostly due to the fact that it's stark black.

My suggestion would be to use a less harsh color to begin 

Agreed.  I’m thinking the smart/safe way to do this would be to mix up a fairly thin mix a couple shades darker than the base coat, and then tweak to taste.

Looks like I need to make a Hobby Lobby run soon.?

[cruz]

I don't use the Tamiya Panel Line wash for my panel lines, I like using the MIG washes for that, these are thinner in consistency than the Tamiya Panel Line alternative. My trick has always been to scribe very deeply and wash right on the plastic even before adding any primer. After this, I don't have to address the panel lines any longer....

[cruz]

7 minutes ago, cruz said:

I don't use the Tamiya Panel Line wash for my panel lines, I like using the MIG washes for that, these are thinner in consistency than the Tamiya Panel Line alternative. My trick has always been to scribe very deeply and wash right on the plastic even before adding any primer. After this, I don't have to address the panel lines any longer....

 

[cruz]

It's a little bit of a tedious process but the results speak for themselves......