What exactly is lacquer paint?

[D.Pack]

First to say, I am a Brit.

And over here, lacquer, it means clearcoat only. For using on cars, furniture, that fence at the end of your garden.

What is lacquer paint in the USA? Is it one of the oldest auto paint types, like cellulose paint?Or is it actually named nitrocellulose?

In UK, (nitro?)cellulose was the only paint type in rattlecans until 30 years ago, before acrylic.

And this photo, a UK shop. Just for more confusion!

Edited April 20, 2024 by D.Pack

[peteski]

Here you go.  Lots of info about lacquers (including nitrocellulose).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquer

Basically "lacquer" is a colloquial name used on this side of the pond for for coatings (paints) which are not enamels.  Hey, there is info on what enamels are too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enamel_paint

As you can see, both lacquer and enamel originally meant something totally different than just paints. Since we are on educational kick, it is also good to understand basics about what paint is generically.  Nitrocellulose is just one or many possible binders used in lacquers.  Seems that it has become a colloquial name for describing lacquer paints in general in Europe.

Good reading if one wants to educate themselves about to be a better modeler about what paint is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint

Both "lacquer" and "enamel" have become generic terms to describe a broad range of paint coatings. There are multiple formulas for both lacquer and enamel paints. They use a range of binders and solvents.

Complicated isn't it?  That is why it is beneficial to at least have basic understanding of what paints are and how they work.  I'm no chemist, but I read quite a bit about paints to be a better modeler.

[D.Pack]

peteski. Thanks for your reply and links.

Wikipedia, I should have guessed that myself when searching.

And it is complicated for sure, the various meanings of enamel for example.

It even refers to enamel nitrocellulose, which I would never have guessed.

And your colloquial terms makes things clearer for me over here.

My reason for posting was to know if Tamiya TS sprays are 'hot' and comparable to a UK cellulose paint, which it is. My paint supplier also sells cellulose custom aerosols.

Am wanting to try a can of it, see if the finish is perhaps finer, (like Tamiya) and show more detail than with using their normal auto acrylic cans.

Thanks again?.

Edited April 20, 2024 by D.Pack

[robdebie]

Interesting question for sure! But I don't think I know of another area in everyday life than paint that uses such vague terminology. Like eteski's example: "paints which are not enamels" - sigh..

'Enamel' itself is another vague description - why not use the technically correct name 'alkyd paint' since alkyd plus oils are the carrier?

Many modelers in my club call enamels 'oil paints', because they are derived from crude oil. With that reasoning acylics are oil paints too. Another sigh..

One I haven't cracked yet are 'acrylic enamels'..

Rob

[D.Pack]

Acrylic enamel.

Here is a post from FSM magazine, 2010.

The writer was in the paints industry and writes of 'ad wonks' and their word misuse to make a sale. Which sounds about right.

For myself and rattlecans, if Tamiya lacquer means a hot cellulose, then currently that's all I need.

And interesting to see above the acrylic lacquer as 'no such animal'.

SMS paints from Australia are labelled as this.

Edited April 21, 2024 by D.Pack

[Dave G.]

11 hours ago, robdebie said:

Interesting question for sure! But I don't think I know of another area in everyday life than paint that uses such vague terminology. Like eteski's example: "paints which are not enamels" - sigh..

'Enamel' itself is another vague description - why not use the technically correct name 'alkyd paint' since alkyd plus oils are the carrier?

Many modelers in my club call enamels 'oil paints', because they are derived from crude oil. With that reasoning acylics are oil paints too. Another sigh..

One I haven't cracked yet are 'acrylic enamels'..

Rob

There are alkyd arts paints but those are not your traditional oils . Alkyd oils are closer to enamel alkyds and faster drying and fully curing. In alkyd paints the binder is synthetic oil resin. Faster drying than traditional oil paint, oil paint can keep changing and hardening for decade, if not centuries.. Oil paints generally have the pigments carried in linseed oil or another natural vegetation based drying oil, like safflower oil. Windsor Newton and Lukus oil paints use linseed oil in their oil paints but offer also a water cleanup oil line of paints, where one molecule of the linseed oil was changed and made an emulsifier to fit the bill. So with those, oil mixes with water for soap and water cleanup. Now some VanGoh brand oil paints use safflower oil for the carrier. And as a medium to help paint flow, an artist can mix in walnut oil or stand oil. So this is all different from petro or synthetic based alkyds. As you progress from alkyds, to linseed oil, to safflower oil to walnut, then stand oil, the speed of touch dry is changed from fastest to slowest.

Oh and one more complication ! Odorless Turpenoid, is truly odorless as in no odor. But it's not turpentine lol ! It's actually a highly refined odorless mineral spirits. I use this to clean my oil painting brushes. It should clean alkyds as well, it's petro based.

Oil paint solvents can be toxic but the paint is not in general. Certain colors can have metals in them that may be toxic, the highest toxicity of those being cadmium. IE Cad Red or Cad yellow etc. Thus they came out with cad hue paints, these give the same punch to the color without the toxicity.

As others mentioned not being chemists, neither am I ! I just do oil paintings and a lot of studying.

By the way, the term " acrylic" is another whole ball of wax lol! This was meant to be short, so I'm not getting into the acrylic topic. But just to get back to the topic Lacquer, we have acrylic lacquers ( which incidentally, I'm not the greatest fan of. As much as I like cellulose lacquers, I think I dislike acrylic lacquer, unless it's special like Tamiya LP is).

 

Edited April 21, 2024 by Dave G.

[customline]

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[StevenGuthmiller]

Good grief!

 

This is exactly what we need.

More confusion on this subject!

 

Everyone has their own definitions of what this is, and what that is, and then we get the official versions from the paint wonks and industry experts with all of the technical, chemical mumbo-jumbo. and our eyes begin to glaze over!

 

For our purposes, at least for mine, it's pretty simple.

If it says "Enamel" on the can or bottle, it's going to dry slow, go on thicker, dry harder, dry shinier, and can only be over coated with enamel or acrylic as a rule.

If it says "Lacquer", it dries extremely fast, is able to be built up in multiple layers, in most cases will dry duller, but will be able to be sprayed over with virtually any other type of paint.

 

Acrylic seems to be the sticking point because everyone in the business apparently likes that word, and uses it freely on pretty much everything.

If you're using acrylic, you're just going to have to get down in the gutter with the paint wonks if you want to know exactly what properties each acrylic has, because it can be almost anything.

 

 

 

Steve

[peteski]

The main difference between enamel and lacquer paints is that while both dry by solvent evaporation, after that, enamels continue to cure/harden for longer time period, but lacquers, once the solvent is evaporated are fully dry.   The binder (the resin which holds the pigment and which also adheres to the painted substrate) chemically changes during the hardening process (usually caused by reaction with oxygen).  Once cured, enamel cannot be redissolved using its own paint thinner or other solvents.  Cured enamel will soften or become gelatinous when solvents are applied, but it will never liquefy.

Lacquers on the other hand can be redissolved from their dried state, fully mixing into their solvent.

That is why when you have partially dried bottle of lacquer, you can add its thinner to get it back into usable state. But if a bottle of enamel gets past a certain point in the drying/hardening state, no amount of thinner will get it into usable state. It will just be a curdled chunky mess.

As for the taboo words like acrylic, polyurethane, nitrocellulose, and others, those are simply describing the paint's binder. It is the paint's "body" which holds the pigment, and adheres to the painted surface. Usually those are some types of resin.  This is all mentioned in the links I posted earlier.

It also irks  me that modelers took to describing all of the low-odor paints which are either water-based and are usually enamels as "acrylics". While it is true that most do use type of acrylic resin as binder, acrylic is also often used in other types of enamels or lacquers.  That is why when I talk about those types of paint, I usually call them "water-based acrylics".

The 2-part paints are yet another variant of paint.  While they contain solvent (since they are liquid), after the solvent evaporates, they continue to cure (harden) by a chemical reaction similar to a 2-part epoxy adhesive.  But they are not really enamels either.

 

I'm  no paint chemist - just a model builder. But with the advent of internet I  was able to  gain knowledge about the chemicals we use in our hobbies.  This helps me to be a better modeler.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2024 by peteski

[Ace-Garageguy]

There sure is a whole lotta TLDR in this hobby.

Paint is actually kinda complex, and if you want to understand what you're doing rather than just muddle through with often disastrous results, it takes a little intellectual effort.

People who are happy relying on tried-and-true materials and techniques...fine.

But why bash those who want to understand...or explain...some of the chemistry?

There's a whole lotta misuse of terminology and misinformation bandied about too, both by modelers and manufacturers.

Much of it can lead to ruined paint jobs or spoiled effects, and can sour somebody on building models.

The more complete and accurate understanding you have of anything you use, the more likely you won't be making avoidable mistakes.

EDIT: A little off topic, but the bottom line comes down to, as usual, if you're not certain that specific products and techniques will work together, don't rely solely on what you "heard" or what advice you get here, or even what it says on the products themselves.

TEST TEST TEST TEST and VERIFY before committing to using ANYTHING on a model.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[restoman]

5 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

There sure is a whole lotta TLDR in this hobby.

Paint is actually kinda complex, and if you want to understand what you're doing rather than just muddle through with often disastrous results, it takes a little intellectual effort.

People who are happy relying on tried-and-true materials and techniques...fine.

But why bash those who want to understand...or explain...some of the chemistry?

There's a whole lotta misuse of terminology and misinformation bandied about too, both by modelers and manufacturers.

Much of it can lead to ruined paint jobs or spoiled effects, and can sour somebody on building models.

The more complete and accurate understanding you have of anything you use, the more likely you won't be making avoidable mistakes.

EDIT: A little off topic, but the bottom line comes down to, as usual, if you're not certain that specific products and techniques will work together, don't rely solely on what you "heard" or what advice you get here, or even what it says on the products themselves.

TEST TEST TEST TEST and VERIFY before committing to using ANYTHING on a model.

 

 

Yup.

30 some-odd years in the body & paint industry had me, at one time, knowing most of the chemical differences of pretty much any paint. A lot of rather boring aspects of tech painting courses...

But, after a while, it comes down to knowing what you can and can't do with any given product, and that comes only from experience. 

I've been telling prospective painters and modelers for years to practice, practice and practice. When you think you have it down pat, practice some more.

[peteski]

Of course, plenty of practice, and lots of compatibility testing is very important, but knowing the basics about paint chemistry doesn't hurt either.