Ford has recall but won't have parts till next year.

[bobthehobbyguy]

Saw an article that ford has a mandatory recall for a defective part but can't do repairs becuase the parts won't be available v till sometime next year. The part failure will destroy the engine.

Great way to treat your customers ford.

[Ace-Garageguy]

It's a safety issue too, so the affected vehicles should be parked.

In the meantime, you still have to make your payments, keep insurance, and arrange alternative transportation.

This is idiocracy in action, pure and simple.

 

Edited August 15, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[iamsuperdan]

The tiny engine in the EcoSport and some Focus.

Parts aren't made in house, so waiting on suppliers.

 

A few other fun recalls. 

 

Last summer, the Super Duty trucks had a stop sale recall. Incorrect tire pressure sticker on the driver's door jamb. I had three sold trucks that customers could not take delivery of.

Last summer, Transit stop sale recall. Supplemental pages had to be put in the owner's manual. 

January 2024. Stop sale on the Medium Duty (F650/F750) trucks for a parking brake issue. Not fixed until mid-June. I had 6 trucks sitting, each with upfitting ranging from $20k for a fancy flat deck, to $50k for a cube body, to $75k for a reefer unit, to $175k for a 20ft aluminum service body package.

Maverick now has an engine replacement recall too.

 

And I've been waiting for vinyl floors for the E-series cutaway since December. I have a client that ordered some cutaways and didn't want the floor, now the upfitter building buses on them says they need the floor. Back order, no stock Canada, no stock USA. No ETA.

 

At Ford quality, is job....4.

 

[bobthehobbyguy]

Quality may be job 4 but customer service isn't on the list. And there already lawsuits in the works. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Ummmmm...the immersed-in-hot-oil toothed timing and oil-pump drive belts have been a disaster waiting to happen from the git-go.

Sure, they've been used for a while, but more and more problems are coming up, with belt replacement intervals needing to be more frequent.

EDIT: And because these belts are INTERNAL, the cost to disassemble and reassemble enough of the engine to perform the required replacement is MUCH HIGHER than the cost to replace dry toothed belts...which still ain't cheap, and ignoring recommended replacement puts a LOT of otherwise nice vehicles in the junkyards.

Polymers tend to absorb hot oil, swell, and ultimately soften/dissolve and fail.

But it's not just crazy-old-Mr. Negative know-it-all-me who kinda notices the truth.

EDIT: A wet timing CHAIN is usually good for 200-300,000 miles with zero maintenance other than normal oil changes.

 

 

And it's not just Ford experiencing wet-belt issues:

 

Edited August 15, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[stavanzer]

Miniature Displacement Engines, many with Turbos, running at high RPMS in a High Temp environment being asked to do the work a much larger and less stressed engine used to do, are blowing up/failing.

Who Could have guessed that this would happen? Not the Brain Trusts at the Big Two, that;s for sure. I'm sure that the engineers who really designed these motors (to impossible Corporate Specifications), are doing the best they can. But, Penny Pinching and Short Term Thinking are destroying the Automobile Companies. And as collateral damage they are taking everything else with them. Boeing comes to mind. The entire country is suffering a crisis of Competence, in both Manufacturing and Building. It is easy for anybody who works with their hands to see, but somewhat harder for the rest of the public who never use a wrench or screwdriver to see.

I won't say we are doomed. We are not. But, we as a society will see continuing failures of both large and small technologies, until we go back to valuing the older, sturdier values. Technology is a servant, not a master.

[Engine 51]

At Ford quality is job NONE. 

[bobthehobbyguy]

I find it hard to believe this problem wasn't known.. Rigorous testing would have made it obvious. 

What I can't fathom is although the cost to make it right with customers it still would be less than t he invetible class action suits will cost. In addition the loss of futue customers ,

The only good thing at least people aren't stranded in space like the Boeing starling astronauts.

[Ace-Garageguy]

4 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

I find it hard to believe this problem wasn't known.. Rigorous testing would have made it obvious...

Or just a couple of greasy-hands engineers who were conversant with failure modes of DRY belts.

Anyone who's been around vehicles with "rubber" timing belts knows oil or even antifreeze contamination is death to them, rapidly accelerating their failure rates. Sure, these new "wet" belts are formulated to resist degradation while immersed in oil, but for whatever reason, whether non-spec material from "offshore" suppliers or something else, IT'S NOT WORKING.

Also, one cited additional problem is that, as the belts degrade in the engine oil, the particles sloughing off of them form a sticky sludge that can plug up oil-pickup screens, leading to loss of oil pressure and catastrophic engine failure.

This is a growing problem with ivory-tower engineers who have zero practical experience, think that if they can design something in CAD that's all they have to do, and who put 100% faith in artificially accelerated "testing" programs that simply cannot accurately simulate REAL TIME.

And the push in engineering circles towards "zero prototypes", where no physical testing is done prior to releasing designs for production, with all design validation and testing done in "computer simulations" will make problems like this more and more frequent.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[Mike C]

Ford and Boeing must be working together.

[bobthehobbyguy]

11 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

This is a growing problem with ivory-tower engineers who have zero practical experience, think that if they can design something in CAD that's all they have to do, and who put 100% faith in artificially accelerated "testing" programs that simply cannot accurately simulate REAL TIME.

And the push in engineering circles towards "zero prototypes", where no physical testing is done prior to releasing designs for production, with all design validation and testing done in "computer simulations" will make problems like this more and more frequent.

It's also the upper management attitude that shove it out we can fix it later.

Time and time again we have seen that. Increase the numbers of cars in trains but not do anything to mitigate the higher risk of derailment.

GM created a Royal mess when they changed ignition switches but failed to change the part number and had to recall more vehicles becuase they didn't know what vehicles needed the switches changed.

Most recently the Clouds trike debacle.

It's simply not cost effective to take the we'll fix it later attitude. It's even worse when the problems cause a loss of lives or irreparable damage.

[Ace-Garageguy]

10 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

It's also the upper management attitude that shove it out we can fix it later...

That's been Microsoft's model for decades.

Now it's the model for lotsa software, including what runs a high percentage of vehicles.

The world is changing, and not all for the better.

"Technology" is a wonderful tool, but a side effect is that it's allowing many people to be lazier, sloppier, and less capable.

And when you try to call attention to most of this stuff, the almost universal reaction is "lalalalalala everything is OK and I don't care anyway lalalalalalala don't be so doom-and-gloomy lalalalalalalala..."

 

[stavanzer]

1 hour ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

It's also the upper management attitude that shove it out we can fix it later.

It's simply not cost effective to take the we'll fix it later attitude. It's even worse when the problems cause a loss of lives or irreparable damage.

It is Cost effective. Nobody from Upper Management lost their jobs. So, it works for them. And that in 2024, is the bottom line for them.

Edited to add. It doesn't matter what you want. It only matters what they want. This has been the theme of the entire Globe for the last 25 years.

Edited August 13, 2024 by stavanzer

[Engine 51]

^^^^^This. It is all about the people at the top…period.

[bobthehobbyguy]

On 8/12/2024 at 8:28 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

And the push in engineering circles towards "zero prototypes", where no physical testing is done prior to releasing designs for production, with all design validation and testing done in "computer simulations" will make problems like this more and more frequent.

Was watching an analysis of the crowdstrike debacle caused by a chain of cost saving shortcuts. Which is common in many cases today.

Too much reliance on automated testing and not enough testing with actual users. 

[thatz4u]

If the designer were to drive the vehicles for 2 years & make or pay for all repairs, ....that might change things

[peteski]

6 minutes ago, thatz4u said:

If the designer were to drive the vehicles for 2 years & make or pay for all repairs, ....that might change things

2 years? Neah.  While older cars were prone to early breakdowns and rusting, today's cars in 2 years barely need regular maintenance. Make it 10 years, then chances of breakdown would be much greater. At least that holds true with the new cars I owned in the last 18 years.

[Ace-Garageguy]

7 hours ago, peteski said:

2 years? Neah.  While older cars were prone to early breakdowns and rusting, today's cars in 2 years barely need regular maintenance. Make it 10 years, then chances of breakdown would be much greater. At least that holds true with the new cars I owned in the last 18 years.

Recalls, failures, and just plain stupid on newer vehicles may be more common than you think.

There are also known defects, like some GM trucks with wiring-harness ground faults that can kill the engine and electrically-assisted steering simultaneously (think that might be a safety issue?), but may not have become recalls...yet.

Here's the tip of the iceberg:

https://www.caranddriver.com/recalls/

Edited August 16, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY

[Brutalform]

BMW just recalled 3/4 of a million vehicles, because the water pump wiring can catch fire. It’s 2024! You think the auto manufacturers would be able to build a safe car, kinda like they did in the past several decades? 

Edited August 20, 2024 by Brutalform

[peteski]

I think today's vehicles and appliances (well all the electronic and mechanical devices) have gotten way too complex.  Seems too complex to account for every possible issue while the item is being designed or tested.  So things fail, recalls happen, software.firmware gets updated.

Back in the day when you could open up the hood and see the ground under the car, engine used mechanical water and fuel pumps, and spark was induced by a set of mechanical points there was very little to break. Things were very simple.  Not so much anymore, with each car having a dozen or more computers, smart light bulbs, CAN bus, direct  fuel injection, etc. etc.  If you think about it, there are many billions (or more like trillions) of transistors in a modern car, servos, sensors, etc. etc.  More stuff is there, the more chances something will go wrong or will need updating.  That's progress.

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, peteski said:

I think today's vehicles and appliances (well all the electronic and mechanical devices) have gotten way too complex.  Seems too complex to account for every possible issue while the item is being designed or tested.  So things fail, recalls happen, software.firmware gets updated.

Back in the day when you could open up the hood and see the ground under the car, engine used mechanical water and fuel pumps, and spark was induced by a set of mechanical points there was very little to break. Things were very simple.  Not so much anymore, with each car having a dozen or more computers, smart light bulbs, CAN bus, direct  fuel injection, etc. etc.  If you think about it, there are many billions (or more like trillions) of transistors in a modern car, servos, sensors, etc. etc.  More stuff is there, the more chances something will go wrong or will need updating.  That's progress.

Yup.

But here's the BIG thing.

The ONLY system that NEEDS to be computer-managed in a vehicle is the engine/drivetrain.

No argument from me that computer EFI/spark control and trans-shift management improve fuel economy, drivability, and available power.

But all the "body-modules" and ECM-controlled subsystems like wipers, charging, lights, signals, power windows, locks, etc. are STUPID STUPID STUPID.

It's been argued here that the "computer logic" it takes to run them is "cheaper" than mechanical logic.

Really?

You still have mechanical switches for driver input. You still have high-current relays controlled by the ECMs that direct output. And you have the bulbs or wiper motor or whatever at the end of the line. Mechanical logic = switch on, switch off (and perhaps intermediate/intermittent settings for wipers). NO COMPUTER REQUIRED.

But no, they have to run everything through STUPID processors just because everyone else does. It accomplishes NOTHING other than add layers of useless complexity that are virtually guaranteed to fail, and usually take out more than a single system when they do. And they just can't use a simple cable to operate something like a heater valve, or an air door. Nope. Have to have a vast array of sensors and stepper motors and solenoids, and another module with complex programming to interface between the operator and the desired action.

IF a vehicle buyer requires luxury add-ons like 50-way power seats with memory to accommodate 10 different drivers, SEPARATE, DISCREET ECMs to run them, cheap and easy to diagnose and quick to replace, make a whole helluva lot more sense than everything being interconnected as has become common practice.

KISS is one of the wisest acronyms in the history of engineering, and the most widely ignored.

KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID.  

 

 It's not just software development that works like this, kiddies.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[peteski]

Yes, all what you mentioned Bill, but don't forget all those computers which do adaptive cruise control, lane departure correction, automatic-parking, and even some limited self-driving  capabilities.   Do we really need all that stuff?

[stavanzer]

22 minutes ago, peteski said:

Yes, all what you mentioned Bill, but don't forget all those computers which do adaptive cruise control, lane departure correction, automatic-parking, and even some limited self-driving  capabilities.   Do we really need all that stuff?

No! No we don't.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, peteski said:

...don't forget all those computers which do adaptive cruise control, lane departure correction, automatic-parking, and even some limited self-driving  capabilities.   Do we really need all that stuff?

Well, if you're too inept, incompetent, and spatially-challenged to parallel park, and too distracted by texting and/or yakking about nothing that can't wait (complete with much gesticulation) to maintain your own lane...well, yeah.   

                            

                                             

Edited August 21, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[Brutalform]

1 hour ago, peteski said:

Yes, all what you mentioned Bill, but don't forget all those computers which do adaptive cruise control, lane departure correction, automatic-parking, and even some limited self-driving  capabilities.   Do we really need all that stuff?

And don’t forget the self driving vehicles, so idiots can continue to text, or otherwise be totally distracted while driving.