Buyer beware

[stavanzer]

Not, to pick a fight, but a Buddy just gave a can of Dupli-color primer. I've never used primer before on my paint jobs, but spraying Coloured paint straight from the can they look awful. So my Buddy gave me this can to try.

He tells me that I will really like it.

Since this is a highly emotional topic with some, are there any hints any body wants to share on how I should use the spray.

I do not own and Airbrush, so decanting is out.

[Ace-Garageguy]

46 minutes ago, stavanzer said:

Not, to pick a fight, but a Buddy just gave a can of Dupli-color primer. I've never used primer before on my paint jobs, but spraying Coloured paint straight from the can they look awful. So my Buddy gave me this can to try.

He tells me that I will really like it.

Since this is a highly emotional topic with some, are there any hints any body wants to share on how I should use the spray.

I do not own and Airbrush, so decanting is out.

It depends on what specific Duplicolor primer it is. They're NOT all the same.

In general, they're too hot for a lot of recent plastic kit formulations, they might craze the plastic badly, so TEST before you use the stuff on something you care about.

On the other hand, they work very well on more solvent-resistant plastics, found mostly in much older kits.

If you'll post what exact product it is, we can give you more useful advice.

Links below cover a lot.

 

 

 

Edited August 22 by Ace-Garageguy

[stavanzer]

Engine enamel primer, with ceramic

DE 1612, is the Bar code.

He's been using to prime 1/48 scale Modern US Jet Fighters. His paint jobs look very good but he is a Master of the Air Brush.

Edited August 22 by stavanzer

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, stavanzer said:

Engine enamel primer, with ceramic...

I can't imagine why anyone would use that for scale models.

I would guess the solvents are particularly hot, to enhance adhesion to engine parts that haven't been cleaned as thoroughly as possible, or porous cast-iron that has absorbed some oil. But I don't KNOW, as I always shoot engine paint on real engines directly on bare metal just like the factory did.

I WILL use primer under actual engine paint on models though, to fill minor imperfections on seams and to protect the plastic from hot solvents.

These are the Duplicolor primers most modelers I'm aware of (including me) prefer (though some like the non-sanding sealer too):

https://www.duplicolor.com/product/sandable-primer/

[Sledsel]

I read so many people with paint primer issues and fortunately have never had an issue. I always prime with Duplicolor sandable primers or primer/sealer and have used Testors, Tamiya, Krylon, Krylon Short Cuts and Rustoleum with no issues. This Mustang is done with Duplicolor white primer wet sanded with 1000 grit and sprayed with Rustoleum. Have not wet sanded and rubbed out the paint at all. The Lincoln was done with Duplicolor black primer, wet sanded and painted with Krylon Short cuts. I did wet sand a few dust specs in this one.

Everything out of the can.

[bobss396]

12 hours ago, Jordan White said:

I use non-model brand specific paints all the time and don't have really any issues.

 

However, I will note that the can in the original post is labeled a TURBO can, which is different than their normal spray paint. The turbo cans are meant to put out a higher volume of paint for people who are using them on large projects and need a larger spray pattern, hence you don't want to use them on models period!

One paint that has surprised me in a good way are the MM Extreme Lacquers. The cans spray quite well with great pressure. I have been doing some of my best recent work with them.

[bobss396]

10 hours ago, stavanzer said:

Not, to pick a fight, but a Buddy just gave a can of Dupli-color primer. I've never used primer before on my paint jobs, but spraying Coloured paint straight from the can they look awful. So my Buddy gave me this can to try.

He tells me that I will really like it.

Since this is a highly emotional topic with some, are there any hints any body wants to share on how I should use the spray.

I do not own and Airbrush, so decanting is out.

I'm lazy and don't have a dedicated model building area, so spray cans it is. I do own 3-4 airbrushes, some really nice ones. 

I make sure the body or whatever is as well-prepped as possible, smooth is good. Duplicolor primer sprays very well, I go back and forth with the Mr. Hobby line, which I lucked onto about a year ago. The 1st coat, I turn the body upside down (also with initial color coats) so I get those hard to reach spots.

After the whole thing is primed, I look it over for body work flaws, fly turds, etc. Usually a 2nd coat is required. I will sand out any flaws with something like a 1800-2400 DM cloth. If the last primer coat is not dead-smooth, I'll wet sand that as well until I am happy with it.

I'm also not a fan of "mist" coats, I tend to have a heavy hand with anything I prime of paint. Which gets me into trouble now and then. Lastly, practice makes perfect. If I have been away from models for a few months, I lose my painting edge. It takes a little to get it back to where it was.

[stavanzer]

So, I need to sand the primer? Finest paper I have is 800 grit. I'll need to see in Michaels or Hobby Lobby has some 1200 or 2400. Thanks.

[bobthehobbyguy]

I have been following this often heated discussion. Part of the issue is some of the discussion is too general.

As pointed out Duplicolor has more than one paint system. So if you're had good luck with it which system are you using.

The same goes for Rustolum. There are different spray nozzles.

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

3 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

I have been following this often heated discussion. Part of the issue is some of the discussion is too general.

As pointed out Duplicolor has more than one paint system. So if you're had good luck with it which system are you using.

The same goes for Rustolum. There are different spray nozzles.

 

And of course that's a big part of the problem, especially for inexperienced builders.

They will often expect that all of the products offered by one manufacturer or another should work hand in glove with one and another, and that is certainly not the case.

It can be extremely confusing, and in most cases, they're left to just guess, and that's very often where they wind up running into trouble.

 

This is one of the primary reasons why I went to an air brush.

What I frequently see is individuals making choices of the paint that they want to use based almost entirely on color, having no indication at all if the paint they choose will work with the other materials that they normally use, or if they are even aware of the basic properties of the paint they have chosen. (ie, even whether it's an enamel, lacquer, etc.)

Once graduated to an airbrush, you can take a HUGE amount of the guess work out of the equation.

Color selection is more or less taken out of the equation if you commit to using products such as MCW or Scale Finishes.

You can then choose any color that you desire from hundreds, or even thousands of choices, and still remain within the boundaries of the overall paint regimen you've chosen.

In other words, there's no longer any guessing as to whether your primer, paint and clear will work with one and other, or not.

You're guaranteed that your process remains secure.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited August 22 by StevenGuthmiller

[bobss396]

7 hours ago, stavanzer said:

So, I need to sand the primer? Finest paper I have is 800 grit. I'll need to see in Michaels or Hobby Lobby has some 1200 or 2400. Thanks.

If you do want to use sandpaper, get something good like 3M from an auto parts store or Ace Hardware. I use it now and then.

I cut it into small pieces like 1" x 2" and wet sand with it. Ultimately you are best off with something like Detail Master cloths. 

[stavanzer]

Ok, thanks Bob. There is an Autozone pretty close by. So, 1200 , 2400, anything finer?

[Ace-Garageguy]

22 minutes ago, stavanzer said:

Ok, thanks Bob. There is an Autozone pretty close by. So, 1200 , 2400, anything finer?

800 really ought to be fine for leveling any gritty texture or orange peel you get in the primer.

Do let it dry thoroughly to "shrink in" prior to sanding though.

Only time I use anything finer is color-sanding prior to polishing color or clear.

[stavanzer]

4 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

800 really ought to be fine for leveling any gritty texture or orange peel you get in the primer.

Do let it dry thoroughly to "shrink in" prior to sanding though.

Only time I use anything finer is color-sanding prior to polishing color or clear.

Okay. I'll check it out. Thanks, Bill and Others.

[Ace-Garageguy]

20 minutes ago, stavanzer said:

Okay. I'll check it out. Thanks, Bill and Others.

Here's more FYI.

Duplicolor primer can be pretty "hot" for many of the current generation of softer, less solvent-resistant styrene kits.

It's not always an issue, which is where testing on the backside of parts from the actual kit you're working on becomes prudent.

This Revell '50 Olds hood was sufficiently solvent-resistant so there wasn't a problem...EXCEPT where I'd broken the surface to remove the center peak, an emblem, and some divots.

Crazing, "ghosting", and swelling resulted, but repeated sanding and re-primering killed it eventually.

After finally getting a full coat of gray and sanding with 600 wet, the result shot with Duplicolor "mica" looks like this:

[mrm]

4 hours ago, stavanzer said:

Ok, thanks Bob. There is an Autozone pretty close by. So, 1200 , 2400, anything finer?

As ace already said, there is absolutely no need to go beyond 800 grit when sanding primer. Here are some basics you need to understand to make your life a lot easier. 

First, there are two different kinds of bond you can have between plastic and paint or plastic and primer, primer and paint, paint and paint or paint and clear. Those are mechanical or chemical. This is where the whole sanding , drying, curing, recoating thing gets confusing. You can spray a coat of primer and depending on the thickness of the coat it can feel dry, but it doesn't mean it is cured. Here it gets tricky. You can have few thin coats and not long after them you can spray paint over it. This will allow the paint to "burn" into the primer and create a chemical bond. Basically fusion. In this case you don't need to sand it at all. Or you can wait for the primer to fully cure, but then you need to sand it to create a "raw" surface for the paint to bond, which would be mechanical bond. In either case the idea is that whatever coat you are applying it can not have stronger solvents than in the coat beneath it, or it will penetrate it and cause a myriad of possible problems. I find the whole polishing of every layer before its covered by the next utterly stupid. Pretty much any paint out there, no matter manufacturer or purpose will fill in 600 grid scratches without a problem as long as you sanded properly. And that is in circular motion with no pressure, letting the sand paper do its job. You don't even have to wetsand primer, as long as you clean it really well. And duplicolor actually has a cool waterborn product just for that. The main goal is to have even layer of primer EVERYWHERE on your body. The most common mistake I have seen is people spray few solid layers of primer and then sand imperfections or body work in the process of preparation and then just spray a thin coat of primer covering everything. But now they have areas where there is quite a buildup of primer, versus areas where there is very very thin coat of primer. And then when they spray a hot paint over it, it finds a weak spot and creeps under the primer and then you have a disaster on your hands. Which is exactly why I prefer chemical bond if possible. But for that you need to learn to lay a perfect coat of Primer. And that can be achieved only with practice and experience. 

    My suggestion for you if you want to get into the whole multilayer game of primer, color, clear etc., is to not waste your money and just buy yourself a can of nice Tamiya grey primer and use their colors. Those two are designed to work together and have a proven record. By the time you run out of color options from Tamiya, you should have mastered the spray can primer game and have few quite well finished models on your shelf. Then you can start branching into other brands and types of paint. But as far as ease of use with proven results, nothing beats Tamiya. I would just recommend to be very careful with their clear, which will eat through decals and is extremely hot. 

So, don't be afraid to go get a cheap model and build it box stock just to practice. I believe that you will find a whole new level of joy in building models

Edited August 23 by mrm

[stavanzer]

Thanks, Mozzi. I'll get some Tamiya Primer ordered. I already have some Tamiya Paints.

Edited August 23 by stavanzer

[StevenGuthmiller]

13 minutes ago, mrm said:

I find the whole polishing of every layer before its covered by the next utterly stupid.

I may not have used the same terminology, but I agree.

 

The only time I sand between coats is if it's absolutely necessary, and that applies to primer, color and clear, and I use a LOT of coats.

As many as 14 or 15 coats when it's all said and done.

Of course I'm using all lacquer based products, so there's never any issues with bond where sanding or scuffing is really a necessity.

 

17 minutes ago, mrm said:

My suggestion for you if you want to get into the whole multilayer game of primer, color, clear etc., is to not waste your money and just buy yourself a can of nice Tamiya grey primer and use their colors. Those two are designed to work together and have a proven record. By the time you run out of color options from Tamiya, you should have mastered the spray can primer game and have few quite well finished models on your shelf. Then you can start branching into other brands and types of paint. But as far as ease of use with proven results, nothing beats Tamiya. I would just recommend to be very careful with their clear, which will eat through decals and is extremely hot. 

A very sound recommendation.

You're far better off starting out with tested and reliable products before you begin "experimenting" with others.

Some of those "others" might be quite easy to master and work with, while others, regardless of how much experience you might feel that you have with them, can be very unpredictable, and you never know when they're going to sneak up and bite you right on your posterior! 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[peteski]

Since we have now moved to all sorts of subjects and techniques, I don't prime unless I have to, and never sand any paint jobs unless I have to. I shoot all sorts of paints (decanted or not) through Badger 200 airbrush I have owned for over 30 years.

Here is a 1:43 scale Cobra. The body was yellow plastic, so I shot it with a decanted Tamiya fine white primer. Then the color was shot using nail polish thinned with lacquer thinner. Actually that was the 2nd reason for that primer  coat - nail polish and lacquer thinner are "hot" and can attach (craze) bare plastic.  The skunk stripes were then masked with Tamiya tape, and shot with AccuPaint white. It goes on very thin.  AccuPaint is long discontinued, but TruColor paint is basically the same stuff.  Then for clear coat I used decanted Testors Wet Look Clear.  No sanding or polishing.  It looks pretty glossy to me - I'm quite happy with the finish.

I always wonder why so many modelers do all that in-between-coats sanding, and final sanding and polishing.  What's my secret? I don't know.  I don't do mist coats - I airbrush my paint fairly heavily, and I usually don't do more than couple of coats (too much paint and clear makes a model look like it was dipped  in molasses). Back when I started airbrushing, there were no online forums or YouTube.  I just came up with my technique on my own. Works for me.

Edited August 23 by peteski

[Bills72sj]

18 minutes ago, peteski said:

Since we have now moved to all sorts of subjects and techniques, I don't prime unless I have to, and never sand any paint jobs unless I have to. I shoot all sorts of paints (decanted or not) through Badger 200 airbrush I have owned for over 30 years.

Here is a 1:43 scale Cobra. The body was yellow plastic, so I shot it with a decanted Tamiya fine white primer. Then the color was shot using nail polish thinned with lacquer thinner. Actually that was the 2nd reason for that primer  coat - nail polish and lacquer thinner are "hot" and can attach (craze) bare plastic.  The skunk stripes were then masked with Tamiya tape, and shot with AccuPaint white. It goes on very thin.  AccuPaint is long discontinued, but TruColor paint is basically the same stuff.  Then for clear coat I used decanted Testors Wet Look Clear.  No sanding or polishing.  It looks pretty glossy to me - I'm quite happy with the finish.

I always wonder why so many modelers do all that in-between-coats sanding, and final sanding and polishing.  What's my secret? I don't know.  I don't do mist coats - I airbrush my paint fairly heavily, and I usually don't do more than couple of coats (too much paint and clear makes a model look like it was dipped  in molasses). Back when I started airbrushing, there were no online forums or YouTube.  I just came up with my technique on my own. Works for me.

My techniques are very similar. I do not prime, unless I have had to do body work. I like the white Tamiya primer but it does not go far economically. I like decanted enamels and lacquers and also hobby bottled enamels. All thinned with hardware store lacquer thinner. That is up until I started using Mr Color Leveling thinner. I HATE sanding so I will generally skip it unless have to. I do not polish my paints, but Steve's results have me seriously considering doing so. For clear, I have 11 cans of Testors Wet Look Lacquer. Though, I still usually use Future because I know it will NEVER have a reaction with any of my paints and screw ups are easily removed with household ammonia.

[StevenGuthmiller]

23 minutes ago, peteski said:

I always wonder why so many modelers do all that in-between-coats sanding, and final sanding and polishing.

Mainly because you're probably more likely to be unlucky and wind up with numerous flaws in a finished paint job as you are to end up with a flawless one.

It's great if you can manage a perfect paint job every time, but that's improbable.

 

27 minutes ago, peteski said:

(too much paint and clear makes a model look like it was dipped  in molasses)

That is entirely dependent on your materials and techniques as well.

These models, (as are the majority of my builds) wear numerous coats of primer, as well as 5 coats of color, and 5 more coats of clear.

I don't think you could possibly describe them as looking as if they were "dipped".

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

 

[stavanzer]

You , Steve, look to be the exception to the Rule.

I've seen way too many 'dipped in molasses' paintjobs myself at shows.

[peteski]

To me the point is that there is no single perfect painting technique.  You have to experiment and settle on what works for you. The important thing is that you are happy with the model you built.

[StevenGuthmiller]

6 hours ago, stavanzer said:

You , Steve, look to be the exception to the Rule.

I've seen way too many 'dipped in molasses' paintjobs myself at shows.

As have I.

Those paint jobs have usually been done with a very heavy hand with the clear, and in recent years, 2K clear has become the rage and has made that phenomenon all too common.

In my opinion, the main reason why it has become so common is precisely because of the fact that far too many builders are seeking that super high gloss finish, and rather than taking the time to do a little cutting and polishing at the end, they're looking for ways to avoid it, and instead are trying to achieve it by hosing on massive amounts of clear.

Sometimes it pays to apply a little extra time and effort and not always look for the fast or easy solutions for everything.

 

 

 

Steve 

Edited August 23 by StevenGuthmiller

[bobss396]

I will "color sand" primer if it has rough areas or picked up some crud. I like primers that lay down dead-flat right from the can. Duplicolor, Tamiya and My. Hobby do that. 

I do have some sand paper from Auto Zone, I believe the finest they have is #2000 or #2500.