Stoopid internet answers.?

[NOBLNG]

I wanted to identify a manual transmission that I made a resin cast of a while back….so I googled “manual transmission identification”. This is what popped up first.?

[Ace-Garageguy]

Wow. Googlie's AI has achieved true captain-obvious status.

Will technological wonderment never cease?

Edited November 11, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

We've lost a lot of understanding of how the world we take for granted works as we've "progressed" and become oh so "tech savvy".

By the time I was out of sixth grade, I had learned the basic operation of 4-stroke IC engines, how electricity is generated and distributed by transmission lines and transformers, how electric motors convert energy back to useful work, and how rockets and airplanes fly...all requirements in grade-school science.

I routinely meet college grads who don't know any of it today.

How the bloody h are you qualified to vote for representatives and policy issues if you have no idea of how the world you're totally dependent on functions on even the most basic level?

[bobss396]

I still maintain that AI by design is out to make people dumber, not smarter.

A smart population is harder to control over a dumbed down one.

I had a nephew years ago tell me that it was no longer cool to be smart in school and he and other kids were happy to skate by doing as little as possible. Of course things like common-core helped this along.

[MeatMan]

With that said, did you ever find what you wanted?

[NOBLNG]

3 hours ago, MeatMan said:

With that said, did you ever find what you wanted?

Yes, thanks. I believe it to be a Muncie M-20 or M-21.

[Ace-Garageguy]

49 minutes ago, NOBLNG said:

Yes, thanks. I believe it to be a Muncie M-20 or M-21.

Very similar in appearance to a Borg Warner T-10, which is I believe what you've got there, going by the rib on the side cover.

[NOBLNG]

3 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Very similar in appearance to a Borg Warner T-10, which is I believe what you've got there, going by the rib on the side cover.

If my info is correct, the T-10 has nine side cover bolts whereas the Muncie only has seven.

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, NOBLNG said:

If my info is correct, the T-10 has nine side cover bolts whereas the Muncie only has seven.

I guess you have to weigh the importance of the number of cover bolts against the position of the rib on the cover and the slight difference in the overall shape of the housing.

But I've seen so much halfassed and totally incorrect model tooling, it would scarcely matter to me because they're so visually similar...though I am something of a rivet counter.

I wonder how that compares to being a bolt counter.  

Edited November 13, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[NOBLNG]

7 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I wonder how that compares to being a bolt counter.  

You just don’t need as big of a magnifying glass.

[Bugatti Fan]

I think that Bill put something up about stupid internet questions and answers some time back.

Someone asked on a Q&A site named Quorum I think.     'Why do the British speak English, an American language?'   You just could not make it up!  Whoever asked that question must be lacking a bit in the geography department !

[peteski]

On 12/30/2024 at 4:12 PM, Bugatti Fan said:

Whoever asked that question must be lacking a bit in the geography department !

We have had that problem in USA for decades.  I recall that either David Letterman or Johnny Carson used to have segment where they asked people on the street various geography related questions and a lot of the passers-by flunked it miserably. Even questions related to American geography.  But yes, the technology dies seem to make this even worse. Why learn things when you can look everything up on the Interwebs?  The problem is that your brain atrophies, and the info you get from the Interwebs can be just plain wrong!

[slusher]

Us 70’s and earlier school kids learned more when we had encyclopedias and library books out doing our homework.  Now kids use calculators and computers for school work.

Edited January 4 by slusher

[1972coronet]

These AI answers must the equivalent of "graven on the tablets" to folks.

As a Gen-Xer , I recognised that too much reliance upon technology was here (some +/- 40 years ago), and I wanted as little as possible to do with it. Of course my ignorance and apathetic nihilism was my downfall ( Born To Lose ).

I work with kids that're 20-30 years old. I recognise some of the finer points of their electronic knowledge (for lack of a better term) ; to wit : I'll ask if the ones who're musicians (there's a couple) if they know of a particular group, sound, etc. - and they surprise me , pleasantly, with their familiarity of the more obscure bands / artists and/or instruments ( White-Parsons B-Bender , for an instance ).

To the original post : apparently the AI 'bot isn't familiar with manual valve body automatics. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

37 minutes ago, 1972coronet said:

These AI answers must the equivalent of "graven on the tablets" to folks...

To the original post : apparently the AI 'bot isn't familiar with manual valve body automatics. 

Apparently all the little techie wizards working on this krappola have left out a big part of the equation, the one that deals with UNDERSTANDING.

AI, as it appears to be functioning now, is happily content to regurgitate and scramble BS it pulls from various web sources, just like most people who rely solely on Google for their instant "knowledge".

Without an actual KNOWLEDGE BASE, and without the ability to make ACCURATE logical progressions based on actual FACTS, it's useless.

 

[Bugatti Fan]

It's surprising (well maybe not) how many people when using a calculator miss key and get an answer wrong, but think it is correct ! 

Maybe it is a generation thing, but when I was at school we learned the Times Tables until it was ingrained in our memory.   The point being it gave me a feel for numbers, so when using a calculator and use a wrong key I instinctively know if the answer does not look correct.

[bobss396]

2 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

It's surprising (well maybe not) how many people when using a calculator miss key and get an answer wrong, but think it is correct ! 

Maybe it is a generation thing, but when I was at school we learned the Times Tables until it was ingrained in our memory.   The point being it gave me a feel for numbers, so when using a calculator and use a wrong key I instinctively know if the answer does not look correct.

I worked with old timer sheet metal guys. One didn't know Trig, I offered to teach him. He preferred to make trial and error samples on scrap pieces. 

He also had a fear of calculators. "What if I enter a wrong number?".

Accounting would give us old print-out books, we used the back side to draw and work math. This guy had rows and rows of figures.

[rattle can man]

Warning sarcasm here:  Why do you need to understand something? That's what engineers, repairmen, chemists, et al. are for.

What baffles me is when someone says we couldn't build the ancient monuments today even with our tech. Of course not. The higher tech society becomes, the more we forget and the more dependent (and vulnerable) we become.

[bobthehobbyguy]

I took general engineering classes in Junior college  bc (before computers). Calculations were done with slide rules and you needed to estimate that you were gett8ng a reasonable answer. I still do math with pencil and paper and will also compare answers with a calculator. It's important to know how to do things without the aid of technology. 

 

[Pete J.]

I will take it a step further.  When I was in school, engineering students spent two semesters in the university machine shop leaning how to use real tools to build stuff.  Once CAD and CAM became part of the curriculum, engineering schools lost interest in manual machines.  At that point the complaints about engineers designing stuff that couldn't be built went way up!  Everyone who designs stuff should be required to spend time actually building stuff with manual tools.  It changes ones perspective. 

[rattle can man]

Engineers and product designers absolutely need to have experience repairing things before they graduate. then maybe things would be easier to repair and maintain. maybe no more having to remove a wheel to change the sparkplugs.

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Pete J. said:

I will take it a step further.  When I was in school, engineering students spent two semesters in the university machine shop leaning how to use real tools to build stuff.  Once CAD and CAM became part of the curriculum, engineering schools lost interest in manual machines.  At that point the complaints about engineers designing stuff that couldn't be built went way up!  Everyone who designs stuff should be required to spend time actually building stuff with manual tools.  It changes ones perspective. 

Absofreakinlootely.  

[Bugatti Fan]

Back in the 70's I was taught to program  numerically controlled sheet metal punching and nibbling machines. Thinking back one had to be able to develop sheet metal parts from drawings of already formed up components into the flat. Work out the tool paths using offsets to the tool centre lines using trigonometry. Once that was done the program for the m machine had to be written in machine code and finally typed on a machine that punched the codes into either paper or Mylar one inch side tape.

Now a machine program can be produced directly from a 3D CAD file and run through a processor to develop the part, and produce a program in code for the relevant CNC machine. Certainly takes all the slog of developing and code programming away.

Shortly before retiring I worked in a local high school that had some small CNC lathes and milling machines. The screen always showed the lines of machine code being worked at the top. Often the students would ask what it was and when I explained to them what the M and G codes actually meant and did gave them a better appreciation of what the computer was doing for them. They were amazed when I explained to them how NC machines were all programmed in code many years before and how I did it for a living back then.

Edited January 20 by Bugatti Fan

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Bugatti Fan said:

...Shortly before retiring I worked in a local high school that had some small CNC lathes and milling machines. The screen always showed the lines of machine code being worked at the top. Often the students would ask what it was and when I explained to them what the M and G codes actually meant and did have them a better appreciation of what the computer was doing for them. They were amazed when I explained to them how NC machines were all programmed in code many years before and how I did it for a living back then.

I still believe that aspiring mechanical engineers (or any degree path that has anything to do with any kind of manufacturing) should be taught to machine at least simple things on non-CNC mills and lathes. At Ga. Tech, it was mandatory when I was there (as was basic programming in Cobol).

In the mid-1990s when I hired an intern from the Tech ME program, they no longer had to machine anything manually, and the kid told me the beautiful old manual machines were sitting outside in the rain, going to rust.

There is simply no better way to understand machining processes than to make things with your own two hands and a fully engaged mind.

Edited January 20 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY

[Bugatti Fan]

Could not agree more Ace.

I was an apprentice  back in the 60's at a pump manufacturer.

No NC or CNC machines back then. The most valuable thing I learned from that experience was getting a 'feel' for how different metals machined as we used to work on Stainless, Mild Steel, Gun Metal, Cast Iron, Aluminium, Brass and White Metal Lined Bearings. No substitute for using manually operated lathes, mills, borers and drills first off that will give invaluable experience to those young engineers before being let loose on CNC equipment.

Nowadays I have a small lathe, bench drill, toggle press and milling machine for my model making. Enjoy using all to make stuff. Having used 3D CAD before retiring I have no desire to sit at a PC knocking out designs to be made on a 3D printer. Don't get me wrong as I admire the things that can be made by that process and the programmer's skills in designing them. Call me old fashioned, but I like the actual 'feel' of physically working in metals, woods and plastics and get more satisfaction model making the old school way.