Correcting the AMT Ford C-Series?

[Jim B]

So, as I understand it, the AMT Ford C600 is a hot mess if you want to make it accurate, or at lease semi-accurate.  I know the engine is a 534 cu. in. SD V8 (or at least it's supposed to be), which was only available in the C900 & CT900 as an option, and the bucket seats were only available in the C9000.  So, in order to make a C600, I know I will have to swap the 534 out with either a 300 HD I6, a 330 HD V8, or a 361 HD V8, and source a bench seat from someplace.  Oddly the C600 came standard with 6-hole disks (7.50x20) with cast spokes as an option (9.00x20), so I might need smaller tires, too, like from a pick-up truck.  But what about the rear axle?  I'm not sure what comes in the kit, and if it's the same one that's in the C900 tractor kit.  Also, the cab has logos for "C800", so go figure.

Speaking of the C900, in addition to sourcing a bench seat & cab logos (no idea where I'd get those), would I need to beef-up the rear axle & springs?  

Edited February 17 by Jim B

[Aaronw]

I think hot mess is a bit harsh, the C-series was offered 30+ years, in a range of GVWs from 15,000 to 51,000lbs. The kit combines features liberally across the range, but it most accurately represents a 1971-75 C900. I have no idea where the C800 tag came from since as far as I am aware has only been offered as a C-900 tractor and a C-600 stake or box truck.

I have a bunch of C-series brochures from throughout its production run. If you know what you are looking to build year, weight etc I can check against them to let you know what was offered.

 

[Jim B]

Ok, so maybe it's not a "hot mess", would "identity crisis" be more accurate? 😁

Now, all jokes aside, I am planning on building this truck, or something similar:

I can't read the badging on the door, but I'm guessing that it's either a C800 or a C900.  I don't think it's a C9000, but I guess it could be.  Would the rear axle & springs from the AMT C600 City Delivery kit be correct, or correct enough, for this build?  Also, the C800 came with either a 361 or 391 VH V8, would the 390 from the Moebius kit look like the correct engine?

[Aaronw]

As far as kit parts, not really sure on the box truck. I think the box truck was first offered as a Louisville so the rear axle and springs are probably accurate for an 800? The brochure just gives weight ratings for rear springs, not any detail on the number or thickness of leaves in a pack.

Info based on a 1973 brochure.

Funny thing with the C-series the base C-600 had a GVW of 23,000lbs, but optional springs and axles could increase the GVW to 32,000lbs. More than a base C-800 (27,500lbs) and getting close to a base C-900 (36,000lbs).

The cast spoke wheels were optional on the C600 and standard on the larger trucks. Disc wheels were standard on the C-600 and optional on the larger trucks.

9x20 tires were an option on the C600 and standard on the C-800 and C-900. 11x20 were optional on the C-800 and 12x20 was an option for the C-900. Tire sizes do vary some year to year, 11x20 was the largest tire size offered in 1966.

Engines the 300 I-6 was only available in the C-600, along with the 330 and 361 V8. The 361 and 391 V8s were the engine choices for the C800, with the 401, 477 and 534 super duty being available in the C900.

Individual black vinyl seats were standard in the diesel models, C6000, C7000 and C8000. The standard seat was a grey vinyl split bench seat, C900 added black trim which was optional on the others. The custom cab option included "breathable knitted vinyl" seats with grey vinyl bolsters and a fold down drivers arm rest. The C-900 offered a black vinyl bench seat as an option with the custom cab. The custom cab also included a variety of chrome accents including a "custom cab" badge.

The engine from the Louisville would be the correct engine for a diesel C-series. People often call the engine a Cat 3208, but it is really the earlier Caterpillar 1100 series which Ford called the V150-V225. The differences are in displacement, externally the engines are essentially identical. The later Cat 3208 is just an evolution of the 1100 series engine. You have to be a pretty series engine nerd to spot the differences on a model truck (something to do with the fuel injection system.

For some reason Ford didn't offer a C-9000 until the late 80s and it just used the 3208.

On the 00 vs 000 diesel thing, I've noticed that at some point Ford stopped changing the badge on the trucks. I've seen lots of diesel powered trucks that show C-8000 in their documentation, but the truck is just badged as a regular C-800. I'm guessing early on when diesel was kind of the hot new thing, they went that extra mile to create a new badge. Once the new shiny wore off they saved a few pennies and slapped the same badge on all the trucks whether a gas or diesel.

 

Going over this right now the engine is really the big sticking point. Ford allowed the buyer to option the heck out of the truck, so a lot of the errors can be explained away as options.

The seats are only incorrect because of the included engine, and I'd hesitate to say you "couldn't" get these seats in a non diesel, just because they aren't listed. The auto makers used to be a lot more flexible in meeting customer wishes as long as they paid.  

Anyway swap the diesel engine from the Ford Louisville and I'd say it is a pretty decent representation of a 1971-74 C6000-8000.

 

Edited February 17 by Aaronw

[Aaronw]

4 hours ago, Jim B said:

would the 390 from the Moebius kit look like the correct engine?

I think probably? I'm not that big on engines, but pretty sure the FE (FT for trucks) all used the same block from 330 to 391. I know the 1960 Ford Starliner is supposed to have a good FE engine you can use.  

[Aaronw]

On the seats issue. I got my CDL in a 1970 Ford C8000 fire engine, that had bench seats. Bench seats are not listed as an option for diesels in either the 1966 or 1973 brochure I have.

[Dave G.]

1 hour ago, Aaronw said:

I think probably? I'm not that big on engines, but pretty sure the FE (FT for trucks) all used the same block from 330 to 391. I know the 1960 Ford Starliner is supposed to have a good FE engine you can use.  

The differences on a truck FE are mostly internal. One thing that stands out externally is the oil pan. The truck pans I worked on anyway, were one depth over the entire length of the pan and full depth. I'm thinking 12 qts or so, maybe 10. Also looking to the external, exhaust manifolds are different from say a 390 car engine.The intake has a big Boss off the front with with dual thermostats and a heavy duty curved hose to the water pump. The 330-391 HD fe has a dual belt system as well. I'm sure all this can be found online someplace.

Edit: The front balancer is different too, the HD truck engines were externally balanced. So it's a much heavier looking piece of cast.

Edited February 17 by Dave G.

[Jim B]

1 hour ago, Dave G. said:

The differences on a truck FE are mostly internal. One thing that stands out externally is the oil pan. The truck pans I worked on anyway, were one depth over the entire length of the pan and full depth. I'm thinking 12 qts or so, maybe 10. Also looking to the external, exhaust manifolds are different from say a 390 car engine.The intake has a big Boss off the front with with dual thermostats and a heavy duty curved hose to the water pump. The 330-391 HD fe has a dual belt system as well. I'm sure all this can be found online someplace.

Edit: The front balancer is different too, the HD truck engines were externally balanced. So it's a much heavier looking piece of cast.

So, it sounds like putting the 390 from the Moebius F100 won't be a direct swap.  This is getting more & more complicated.

[Dave G.]

14 minutes ago, Jim B said:

So, it sounds like putting the 390 from the Moebius F100 won't be a direct swap.  This is getting more & more complicated.

I think you could live with the exhaust manifolds without too much surgery. The dual thermostat housing could be scratch built. Look online to see if you can get a decent photo of that, it's a chunky bit.. You would need to do some scratch built mods and putty on the oil pan. The hitch to me would be the pulley setup with dual belts, off the top of my head. You certainly could start with a far worse rendition of an FE though, not a bad start with the Mobius.

[Aaronw]

1 hour ago, Jim B said:

So, it sounds like putting the 390 from the Moebius F100 won't be a direct swap.  This is getting more & more complicated.

 

Another option, that may not be wrong for the truck in the photo, would be using the 385 engine out of the Revell F250/350. In 1979 Ford replaced the FT engines with the 385, the 370 as standard and the 429 was optional in the C800. As a heavier truck this engine may be more correct for a larger truck.

 

The truck in the photo does not have the "hood ornament" between the headlights. Unless it was removed for painting the business name across the front that would make it a 1976-83 truck.

This would also address the seat issue as Ford starts to show the individual seats as standard in the diesels and an option in the others by the 1977 brochure I have. 

Edited February 17 by Aaronw

[Jim B]

That could be a solution for the engine, if I can find one of those kits. 

I checked the Moebius bench seat in the C-Series cab tub, but it's too wide.

[Aaronw]

The SD engine continued to be offered through 1981, so as a late 70s truck, removing the cog and lightning bolt on the front of the truck, would actually make the kit pretty accurate as a C-900 since the seats are no longer an issue with that engine (as of at least 1977).

Edited February 17 by Aaronw

[rattle can man]

Remember, there was a time when you could order vehicles with equipment you chose. Heaters, radios and electric wipers were once options. Now you can only buy what they want to build.  And further, the dealer could install options if the factory wouldn't.

[Aaronw]

I passed over one of the more glaring errors in the kit. The air intakes behind the door are just flat. I'm sure this was to make the molding process easier, but this is a fairly visible detail. The easiest fix is just adding a little bit of styrene strip to build it up. Opening up the intakes and building out the detail would certainly look even better, but a lot more effort.

 

[Jim B]

I remember that a guy out of Germany made a P/E set for this kit, and those vents were on there.

[Force]

The kit is too heavy spec'd for a C600, and the badge on the cab door says C800, at least on the kit's I have so I belive it whould be closer to a C800 or C900.

Edited March 9 by Force