Ariel Atom 3D print

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Well, Norm, there are proportioning problems in many off-the-shelf plastic car model kits, and there are those of us who've maintained that it's way beyond time for the manufacturers of said kits to start adopting the 3D scanning techniques they so obviously are not using at the mastering stage.

And then there are those who insist that 3D scanning is not the answer, that a proportionally precise reduction won't really look like the 1:1 subject.

Except that every time we see an example, it kind of... um...

DOES.

(main point being, it's nothing like a slam on your work - and what's more, thank you!)

[NormL]

Ok, I understand your point. Back in the day, .. OK, the '60's!, ... when I was making models I was amazed at the accuracy of the models produced. I was just a kid and didn't get the high dollar stuff if there was any, I was comparing Revell, AMT, Monogram and my favorite at the time IMC. I now, of course, know they were not as accurate as i thought and were the result of painstaking hours of measurement and drafting. They were amazing for what they were. The idea that a strict proportional reduction won't look the best is preposterous. I have had to oversize the joints and a few other things as concessions to 3D printing being fully aware that buy doing so it would hurt "the look". You are correct, the manufacturers should be utilizing the best tools at their disposal.

[JM485]

Wow, most of this stuff is over my head, but hopefully I can learn a bit of it soon since I am planning to got to school to be an engineer. It is amazing what these printers can do, and I hope manufactures do as suggested and start scaling things down a bit more precisely using newer technology.

[Foxer]

... The idea that a strict proportional reduction won't look the best is preposterous. ...

First, thanks for starting this thread and giving us all insight into this extremely interesting subject.

And, thanks for posting that quoted statement! I'm an engineer and simple don't get what all these people are imagining when they talk about not scaling correctly. I believe they just don't understand a camera lens.

Anyway, please keep us informed on your project.

[Austin T]

I am eagerly following this thread.A guy at our last model club meet brought in a dirt track chassis he bought from there,really cool to see in person.

[Lownslow]

I knew some of the Shapeways faithful would show up! I forget they have forums too.

For a second i felt like the only one have you seen Indycals work?, local motors put their rally fighter model on thingiverse for free so did someone claiming to be ford.

[Gluhead]

[in my best Spock voice and raised eyebrow]

Fascinating...

[Bennyg]

This is pure gold. Will be watching. Cheers

Ben

[72 Charger]

Hi norm what paints are compatible with this plastic if it is plastic ?

[NormL]

For a second i felt like the only one have you seen Indycals work?, local motors put their rally fighter model on thingiverse for free so did someone claiming to be ford.

Learn something new every day. I have never heard of Indycals before. Before a couple of months ago I had never heard of local motors either. I have been posting in their Ariel Atom headlight thread though.

[NormL]

Hi norm what paints are compatible with this plastic if it is plastic ?

This design is to the Shapeways design standards for White Strong and Flexible (WSF) http://www.shapeways.com/materials/strong-flexible WSF is a laser sintered plastic that is 100% nylon, so, most anything that you are used to will work. The issue will be a laser sintered plastic is left very porous and really should be sealed before painting. It has a rough course texture and just absorbs paint. When doing the fenders I found that I could be very rough with it. I had printed each front fender as 12 pieces that I glued together (this is because Shapeways apply idiotic length rules for long 3D objects). I used super glue to glue them into shape and the pieces absorbed a ton of super glue. I then took the fenders and bondo'ed them and sanded any imperfection out. I also used the bondo on the back side to make them strong enough for casting. Primer to 400 grit and cast. WSF is very strong if the part is engineered to have internal reinforcement and if printed thin enough very flexible, just a great material. I have also found that heat absorption ridges need to be strategically added to longer prints

[NormL]

First, thanks for starting this thread and giving us all insight into this extremely interesting subject.

And, thanks for posting that quoted statement! I'm an engineer and simple don't get what all these people are imagining when they talk about not scaling correctly. I believe they just don't understand a camera lens.

Anyway, please keep us informed on your project.

I tried to find these comments last night on the forum and was unable too. I did see a thread about 3D printing in general that did bring up some good points. There are always compromises and with current technology you just cannot make a perfect reduced sized model, concessions will be made somewhere. We just cannot print thin enough and still have strength although I am watching what is happening with SLM with high interest. It was brought up in that thread how thin body metal is went reduced to 1/24th, which is true and a great example of a concession.

For me all of the frame rails and I do mean all of the frame rails are a true 1/24th scale, but, the suspension joints are major concessions. Now if I go back later this year and say design the lower tub for the car I will have no choice but to hug the frame. My minimum design width for WSF is 0.7mm or 16.8mm true, that has to outward as I will have no choice. We are talking about a concession that would be very hard to see with your eyes, but, I will always know it is there. Another example is the steering on the car. The steering wheel is in its exact location, size and tilt, but, if I mimicked the stock mounts it would break the first time someone touched it. I was designing for working steering so the shaft is too big, the steering holder is not even close to stock, but, I did maintain the stock geometry.

This leaves me with a question. When I walk away from this project, I will leave this model on Shapeways for people to print for themselves. My journey is for a working model exercise. When I leave it, do modelers want me to mimic the stock suspension and steering (still leaving it strong enough to sit on a shelf) or would modelers want the working model, ... curious?

[Scale-Master]

I don't have the answer to your question; it depends on what a particular individual would want. To that end it is nearly impossible to please everyone.

I would suggest you do it the way you want to, if that means concessions in scale (all models have them) to make a functioning model, go for it, I am sure there are many that would enjoy it. If you prefer to make an accurate as possible replica and forgo the action aspect, do that. You are in the driver’s seat.

What would I want? Accuracy. But that is just me…

[NormL]

OK, let me rephrase the question as modeler's will always answer accuracy to the question that I asked. I am enamored by the engineering, so, I look at it a little differently.

As your first 3D printed model base, would you prefer an example of how far it could be pushed at the time in a single print (movement) or would you still prefer accuracy?

[Gluhead]

Only speaking for myself, of course, in this case I find the potentials involved in producing a functional end-product in one shot more intriguing than absolute scale fidelity.

Now for the real question - Can they make it taste like chicken?

[Scale-Master]

I can see both sides of it.

While accuracy is a great goal to strive for, the mechanics of how to engineer something to be functioning also has its draw. I still think you should take the path that gives you the most enjoyment/challenge.

Trying to please an unknown group of people who might want a copy should be second to making what you want, IMHO...

[NormL]

Oh, you mis-understand, I was always going to finish the working model come hell or high water. That's one of those "can I do it?" things. Besides I have way too many hours into it to just drop that aspect. I guess I was trying to find out if others were viewing that aspect as cool as I do or they were more along the lines of "yeah that's cool, but, when is the model coming out?"

Edited January 10, 2013 by NormL

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Well, seems to me that if you felt up to it, maybe you could offer two versions, the functional one you've already developed, and maybe the static one with all the details in scale. Of course, the more enterprising builders probably won't have much trouble working up things like their own fixed springs or suspension arm mounts, so you arguably have a fine base model just as it stands.

As for the argument on how the eye perceives scale, and why a perfect reduction doesn't look right (except for all the ones that DO, yours notably among them), I think what you're seeing is really more an aggregate reaction to a number of forums in which this subject comes up. 'Round here, I guess, you're more likely to find it when new kits are discussed and proportion problems come up. The Revell '70 'Cuda discussion in "Kit Reviews" doesn't hit on it dead-center, but kind of runs closely parallel.

[Lownslow]

This design is to the Shapeways design standards for White Strong and Flexible (WSF) http://www.shapeways.com/materials/strong-flexible WSF is a laser sintered plastic that is 100% nylon, so, most anything that you are used to will work. The issue will be a laser sintered plastic is left very porous and really should be sealed before painting. It has a rough course texture and just absorbs paint. When doing the fenders I found that I could be very rough with it. I had printed each front fender as 12 pieces that I glued together (this is because Shapeways apply idiotic length rules for long 3D objects). I used super glue to glue them into shape and the pieces absorbed a ton of super glue. I then took the fenders and bondo'ed them and sanded any imperfection out. I also used the bondo on the back side to make them strong enough for casting. Primer to 400 grit and cast. WSF is very strong if the part is engineered to have internal reinforcement and if printed thin enough very flexible, just a great material. I have also found that heat absorption ridges need to be strategically added to longer prints

i dipped my WSF parts in future to stop them from absorbing paint

[mysterj1]

Have been reading through this and trying my best to keep up with the technicalities thereof...amazing work!

For those who don't know, the Atom is simply a FLABBERGASTING vehicle...I came across this a few years back and have been wanting an Atom of my own...

[NormL]

I didn't post the stuff that went into making the first print here, well as I wasn't here then. If you are curious about it prior to what I show here you can see it on AtomChat http://arielatomchat.com/forums/thread1178.html A little more incite and some bitching.

[MachinistMark]

This is so freaking cool!

but, better not let Cadillac pat see this thread or hell try to have you burned at the stake for being a witch..

[Bernard Kron]

Thanx for starting this thread and thanx to all who have participated for their intelligent comments thus far. Like all technologies, 3D printing started with its limitations quite apparent and has gradually addressed and resolved them. I'm sure this will continue and the technology will deliver hansomely on its promise.

NormL, your discussion underscores two themes which have been with us in the world of plastic kit auto modeling at least for the last 50 years, fidelity of function and fidelity of representation. Of the two, fidelity of representation has invariably won out over fidelity of function. One of the first things most plastic kit scale modelers abandaon, generally with little or no regret, is rolling wheels, even though almost all kits try to accomodate this. Other functional details which are almost always ingnored are things like opening doors, trunk lids, etc. More advanced modelers enjoy adding them to models but most modelers rarely if ever complain that kits are missing these features. Yet other functional details like working headlamps, sprung suspension, and even "steerable" or "posable" wheels are hardly missed at all. On the other hand, fine, thin body panels are appreciated, as are sharp crisp edges, and strong, well engineered joints. So "concessions" which put structural integrity, ease of assembly and proportional accuracy over functional detail pretty much rule the day in the world of scale automobile modeling.

The major limitation of 3D printing as of as recently as a year ago was, as I understood it, printing resolution and how it affected surface smoothness and porosity and fineness of detail in very small parts. 1/25 and 1/24 scale result in very small parts so coarse media and printing resolution was, and may still be, a real "deal breaker" in our world. Is that still the case or are affordable high resolution printing and superfine media merging now as a real possibility? Your comments anout the porosity issue of your 1:1 parts for your Atom were very revealing in this regard.

Thanx again. I will be following this discussion closely.

[NormL]

Since I don't paint or work with models, my opinions on applicability are fairly useless. I can tell you if I was trying to do an accurate representation, I would not be utilizing just one printer. For true representation with current tech, I do believe you have to use several methods to achieve the goal. I would be using WSF for the main body and structure due to cost and strength, I would be using FUD (Frosted Ultra Detail) http://www.shapeways.com/materials/frosted-detail for detail glue on parts due to the very high detail but highly brittle. FUD is a deposit style of printing and I have seen some extreme detail from this that I would find hard to believe would not meet detail standards (this was not a Shapeways print). Shapeways deposit style does have some great detail look at the tiny Atom next to the penny on page one of this thread, but, I have seen the flawless repeat of the detail of the face of a coin. I would love to have access to an SLM machine for sintered metal, the detail and strength being another big bold step, ... i.e. I think might still be NASA only.

Subject change ...

Getting bored awaiting the model. Here are some detail pictars of how I am envisioning the systems working. If it works, very cool! If it doesn't ...





The idea is that you would push in the rod by the tire which in turn pushes a plate and shaft to the right. The drive shaft gear is on the shaft and will be forced into contact with a very large granny gear on the storage shaft. Dragging the car backward will now "load" the spring. This will spin the storage shaft and start walking it to the left until a pawl engages the top lever and the shaft will not rotate anymore. This should now be sitting in a locked state until the top lever is activated. If there is enough flexibly in the plastic printed spring when the lever is released it should spin the drive shaft and the car should move forward. It may not move, dribble forward or do a burn out, ...lots and lots of ifs .....

I also got a feeling reading the 3D printing thread, that some of you are awaiting that printer for your shop before you jump in. Tech is changing way to quickly for any printer purchased not to trounce any laptop in devaluation. That is why I use Shapeways, their 900K laser sinter machine is fine, I wait a week but I don't get 84 easy monthly payments. Otherwise you may be waiting a while and as I said above, several different printers may be necessary to do what you need.

Edited January 11, 2013 by NormL

[Lownslow]

Youre gonna love Form 1 thats the printer im aiming for this year