Clear coating race car models. Should they be that shiny?!

[Harry P.]

So to the contest judging side bar... When I build models for a model railroad model contest generally one of the requirements is to produce a photograph of the car/scene/locomotive/whatever that depicts the subject modeled so the judges have a reference point. Perhaps something like this should spill over into car model contests in categories like racing cars or factory stock replicas to guide the judge's (and the rest of the audience)'s opinion?

Now that is an excellent idea that makes perfect sense. If you model is supposed to depict a real car out there somewhere, photo documentation would be a huge help in educating judges who may not be familiar with your subject.

[Harry P.]

I've had the guys with 37-part clears complain that their model should have won because it was shinier than all the others in the class, until I point out the basic flaws that their cokebottle clearcoat couldn't gloss over.

Dang! Not only well stated, but cleverly stated, too. If I had a "thumbs up" emoticon handy, I'd throw it up there.

[martinfan5]

Dang! Not only well stated, but cleverly stated, too. If I had a "thumbs up" emoticon handy, I'd throw it up there.

Edited April 17, 2013 by martinfan5

[High octane]

Nick, are you aware that the air in your house carries dirt, grease and other airborne chemicals.

10 or 20 years of that takes its toll and will be much harder to clean off uncleared Models than those that have been clearcoated.

Don't worry about your outside deck. Dirt, dust and airborne grime is everywhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CadillacPat

I keep my built models in a display case and I'm not worried about airborne particles, dirt, grease, etc.. I have models built in the early 70's and early 80's and there's nothing wrong with them, and I didn't clearcoat over the decals either. Besides, I didn't build my models to last 100 years as I'll be long gone.

[2002p51]

So to the contest judging side bar... When I build models for a model railroad model contest generally one of the requirements is to produce a photograph of the car/scene/locomotive/whatever that depicts the subject modeled so the judges have a reference point. Perhaps something like this should spill over into car model contests in categories like racing cars or factory stock replicas to guide the judge's (and the rest of the audience)'s opinion?

I've seen that done in model car contest. They had a "Replica" class. It didn't matter if the car was a street rod, race car, or your father's Oldsmobile, the entry required a photo or photos and the model was critically judged on how well it replicated the prototype.

I would like to see that a requirement for all factory stock and race car classes in any contest.

[Harry P.]

I've seen that done in model car contest. They had a "Replica" class. It didn't matter if the car was a street rod, race car, or your father's Oldsmobile, the entry required a photo or photos and the model was critically judged on how well it replicated the prototype.

I would like to see that a requirement for all factory stock and race car classes in any contest.

That's so painfully logical, you have to wonder why it's not S.O.P. already.

[Harry P.]

Besides, I didn't build my models to last 100 years as I'll be long gone.

At the rate styrene decomposes, your models will outlast you by a long way!

[2002p51]

That's so painfully logical, you have to wonder why it's not S.O.P. already.

It's one of the reason I always try to supply some supporting photos with any of my models in a contest whether it's required or not. It helps the judges who invariably don't know what they are looking at!

[gtx6970]

You're comparing apples and oranges here. A model contest and a Concours are two completely different types of events.

A model car, theoretically, at least (if it represents a real 1:1 car) should be judged at least party on accuracy and realism. In the Concours, the cars are not representing anything, they are the real cars, so "accuracy" or "realism" doesn't apply... all they're judged on is physical appearance (and correctness of restoration).

Harry,

Sorry but I respectivle dis-agree. I used to work for a shop that has been invited to ( its the only way your entry is on the show field @ Pebble Beach) and won there respective class at Pebble Beach . He has told me many times it was never a show about absolute correctness at any point he has exibited a car there. ( 3 times I think )

I have been involved with high level Concurs shows, as a judge , and exibiter, and as a patron. Trust me, I woudl venture to say

99% of the cars entered are no where near 'correct'. It is , and so I'm told by exhibiters envolved a lot longer than I have, is ' A beauty contest. '

In my gutt I have serious doubts the craftmanship as displayed today , is anywhere near the level compared to when they were new.

Attend a true Concurs level show,,,,, and Really look over the cars that win top honors sometime. Every bolt on the engine has the flats of every hex pointed the same direction. Every bolt / nut with a cotter pin going thru it has said cotter pin pointed in the same direction and cut the same length in addition to every flat headed the same direction. Valve stems are put at the exact same location on every tire. etc etc etc.

Edited April 18, 2013 by gtx6970

[CadillacPat]

I keep my built models in a display case and I'm not worried about airborne particles, dirt, grease, etc.. I have models built in the early 70's and early 80's and there's nothing wrong with them, and I didn't clearcoat over the decals either. Besides, I didn't build my models to last 100 years as I'll be long gone.

The fact that you are not "worried" about airborne particulates, grease and other chemicals, has nothing to do with their factual presence.

If your glass cabinet has a door on it, then all that stuff is on your Models.

Maybe hermetically sealed in a Mayonaisse jar on Funk and Wagnalls porch,---- but otherwise, there's dirt.

CadillacPat

[CadillacPat]

In the Concours, the cars are not representing anything, they are the real cars, so "accuracy" or "realism" doesn't apply...

What-t-t-t-t-t-t-t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that would really be inefficient judging!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CadillacPat

[IMSANUT]

So many points to hit here. . . .

I agree with Harry on a couple of them. To me a model car should represent a 1:1 subject as accurately and correctly as possible. That includes the level of finish. I've been a race photographer covering the NASCAR Sprint Cup series for 30 years now I've never seen a 1:1 Cup car with a finish on it like the typical model. NEVER!

And now wraps are so popular and save the teams so much money, there's hardly a car in the garage any more than has any paint on it at all! It's all vinyl. And no, they're not clear coated because that defeats one of the main reasons for using a wrap; it comes off as easily as it went on. Now that sponsors are changed and rotated around from race to race, that's important.

I also agree with Harry on there being no need to "protect" decals if they are properly applied. There's a certain segment of this screwy hobby of ours that believes you are "supposed" to coat decals but that's a false paradigm. Like Harry, I too have models that are 30 plus years old with the decals showing no ill effects at all.

I think I have a bottle of clear gloss around here somewhere, but I'm not sure because I have no use for it!

And many people post " . .to each his own. . ." which just drives me nuts. That's just a cop out to excuse shoddy research, no research, or a lack of caring about my first point above. If you really believe that building model cars to accurately represent a full scale subject is what this hobby is all about, then you can't simply do what you want and you must get the details right and "to each his own" doesn't enter into it. Otherwise, you're just playing with little plastic cars.

Contests? OMG, all bets are off in contests. I've entered them, I've worked them, I've judged them. Many times I've been the "victim" of a judge who had no knowledge of what the real thing should look like and no clue what I was trying to represent with my model. I've been beaten by completely inaccurate models with incorrect features but the builders were "known" by the judge. There's nothing you can do about some of that stuff. So you try not to let it get to you and move on.

What else? Ummm, please remember that all of the above is my somewhat learned opinion after more than 50 years of participation in this hobby. Believe it or not, I have been threatened with physical harm for expressing these opinions on forums in the past. In fact there is one forum that I no longer participate in because of the "community thought" so prevalent there that does not accept any differing ideas or opinions.

This really is a crazy hobby, I love it dearly, but sometimes I think we are all nuts!

I believe Drew is correct here on all points.

[Pete J.]

Oh I love this subject. Lots of points of view and each one can be supported to one degree or the other. As far as clear coating goes, I always clear coat as a minimum to put a protective layer over the decals. I have dinged unprotected decals with a fingernail by accident when handling them so clear coat is the rule on my builds.

Second reason for clear coating- I can sand the edge down and get rid of the over scale edge of the decal. I really like the final paint reflection to not have an ugly edge even if it is just carrier film. Clear coat it and then gently sand the edge away. This also prevents an unrealistic edge if I choose to weather the finish. Rubbing powders or washes will accumulate in that edge will leave a bit of a line. As to the gloss, you can adjust it with rubbing compounds and sandpaper to get the level gloss you want or simply one last coat of semi gloss or flat paint. In other words, clear coating doesn't necessarily mean high gloss. If you talk to a military model builder they always lay down a coat of clear gloss before they put the decals on. This keeps the decals from "silvering". Then they coat them with what ever gloss clear then need to finish. Additionally, if you weather the vehicle, you should have a protective layer of clear over them to get an even layer of grime and washes may interact with decal surface differently than a painted surface.

As to judging, well that is another issue. Personally when I judge, I look for consistency. Most important in finish is quality of the paint job. No booger, bugs, dust, or other foreign objects. There shouldn't be and orange peel or fisheyes either. The finish needs to be consistent over the whole body. Basically, the same level of gloss. If it is flat, then flat throughout. Same for high gloss. No dull spots. Beyond that, I leave it up to the builder to decide what type of gloss level is appropriate when it comes to race vehicles. As I said, a case can be made for every level of gloss.

As to accuracy, that simply should not be a general criteria. Why? Because it is impossible for any judge to be an expert on every class, and type of race car and know all the subtleties of each make that may show up on a contest table. That is just expecting too much. I have great respect for Drew and his knowledge of race cars is unsurpassed in many catagories, but even he can't speak to every type of race car and I doubt that he would try. You also can't say that every race car ever made is beat up. Current F1 cars are very clean, glossy and straight before each race. Why? Same reason that airlines keep their aircraft clean and shiny. They perform better. Dirt and dents cause aerodynamic drag and add weight. In both cases this slight degradation in performance could be the difference between wining and loosing. Same thing with LeMans cars on the starting grid.

If accuracy was a general criteria and the class is race cars, the level of knowledge of the judge can be a severe advantage or disadvantage. If you entered a dirt tracker and Drew was the judge, lord help you, it had better be right. Is that fair then for that builder when Drew may not have even the basics of some other race car? Not really. No one can be an expert on everything.

Now having said that there is an exception to this and strangely IPMS is trying it now. Take a look at the new rules. There is a class for "Documented Replica". The criteria requires documentation. It doesn't matter if it is your Dad's Oldsmobile or Vettel's RB9. Ya gotta have the data! We will see how that works out. It is an interesting way to judge.

Well that is my nickels worth.

[Lownslow]

I always go for shinny then hit it with 2000 grit then wax the finish looks about right

[2002p51]

Harry,

Sorry but I respectivle dis-agree. I used to work for a shop that has been invited to ( its the only way your entry is on the show field @ Pebble Beach) and won there respective class at Pebble Beach . He has told me many times it was never a show about absolute correctness at any point he has exibited a car there. ( 3 times I think )

I have been involved with high level Concurs shows, as a judge , and exibiter, and as a patron. Trust me, I woudl venture to say

99% of the cars entered are no where near 'correct'. It is , and so I'm told by exhibiters envolved a lot longer than I have, is ' A beauty contest. '

This is why I have always said that restored race cars are an unreliable reference for an accurate model.

[Jantrix]

Frankly in contest, finish is what draws the eye. For a judge or any onlooker. Finish is what gets judged first. Finish is what knocks a field of 15 in the category down to 5.

So yes it is out of scale, and yes, probably not appropriate for a race car. But try to win a category without it.

If what you're saying is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, that means model cars are very poorly judged... or at the least, incorrectly judged. Judged not on how accurate a representation of the real thing they are... but on, "ooooh, look! shiny!"

I'd like to reiterate my point. I wasn't saying specifically that a shiny paint job is what knocks a field down to a manageable number but rather the quality of the finish. The standards of judging paint work still apply, no orange peel, chips, fingerprints etc. However a great shine is a plus in nearly every category and a great shine will put you over the guy without one if the quality of the paint work are more or less equal.

After the finish, then the judges start looking at the cleanliness of the build. If the cleanliness isn't there, they are thrown back like undersized fish. A sloppy build is a deal breaker regardless of your finish. If we no longer have enough builds for first, second, third, then the judges revisit the builds that were originally removed from contention to see if they need to move up based on cleanliness of build. After all this, then they take into account customizing, scratch building, detailing, accuracy and general wow factor.

These are the standards of contest judging. I have had long discussions with club members all over Florida. A solid finish and clean building are what wins contests. It is a beauty contest. No question. You might have super-researched the long forgotten 1 of 1, '64 Whatchacallit with the rare neon lime green paint and the optional dinglewhopper, but if your finish isn't tight and the build isn't clean, then it's just another undersized fish on the table.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Jantrix

[David G.]

Short answer to the original question: no.

David G.

[kalbert]

And many people post " . .to each his own. . ." which just drives me nuts. That's just a cop out to excuse shoddy research, no research, or a lack of caring about my first point above. If you really believe that building model cars to accurately represent a full scale subject is what this hobby is all about, then you can't simply do what you want and you must get the details right and "to each his own" doesn't enter into it. Otherwise, you're just playing with little plastic cars.

If you really believe that building model cars to accurately represent a full scale subject is what this hobby is all about Then yes, you can't simply do what you want. But if you're like me, and you don't think this hobby is about picking nits and fussing over accuracy and rather think this hobby is about building and enjoying plastic models, you can build any model any way you like to whatever level you get the most enjoyment from. If documentation and research is your thing, by all means have at it. If a shiny race car is your thing, have at it. I'm not building my models to impress you or anyone else, I'm building them for myself. Heck some people don't even like to build them, they just collect kits! There's alot of ways to enjoy a plastic model kit, and nobody's a lesser man for doing what they want.

Similar arguments spur up in model railroading, but in the end the reality is everyone takes something different away from the hobby. Some folks like to superdetail trackwork, some like circus scenes, some like landscaping, some like planning, some like running, some like switching. Some like to devise complex and prototypical operating schemes for car movements with actual paperwork filled out for each car. Some people like electronics and get their kicks programming PLC's to fully automate signaling, interlocking, and special effects and don't ever put a stitch of scenery on. Some people study a railroad closely and mimic it's history to the best of their ability and dont' ever actually build a layout, some imagine their own fictional line that may or may not even exist in a real place.

There's no right way to enjoy any hobby. Don't tell me how I have to enjoy my models, I won't tell you how to enjoy yours. Maybe I am "playing with little plastic cars", but why should you care?

[gtx6970]

If you really believe that building model cars to accurately represent a full scale subject is what this hobby is all about Then yes, you can't simply do what you want. But if you're like me, and you don't think this hobby is about picking nits and fussing over accuracy and rather think this hobby is about building and enjoying plastic models, you can build any model any way you like to whatever level you get the most enjoyment from. If documentation and research is your thing, by all means have at it. If a shiny race car is your thing, have at it. I'm not building my models to impress you or anyone else, I'm building them for myself. Heck some people don't even like to build them, they just collect kits! There's alot of ways to enjoy a plastic model kit, and nobody's a lesser man for doing what they want.

There's no right way OR wrong way to enjoy any hobby.

sums it up pretty well for me. I build little toys cars because I like the subject matter that I'm trying to replicate and if someone else looks in the case and sees what I have in my minds eye,,,,then I acheived my goal.

Last weekend was the 1st contest I've entered in well over 10 years with ZERO expectations of placing, let alone winning. I was there so my daughter could show off her 1st built model,, . And in hopes she might enjoy it enough to follows in dads footsteps. and see friends I only see once a year at said contests.

Edited April 18, 2013 by gtx6970

[Psychographic]

First off, there is not enough info on the question at hand. Are you modeling a car before it hits the track for the season or after it has started? Is it a drag car, a road racer, a dirt or asphalt car?

I've lettered hundreds of race cars back in the day. I would say at least 99% of them had at least a decent gloss to them. Most of these were dirt modifieds and street stocks that were shiny when I lettered them. By the end of the season they might not have been so shiny.

I honestly think there is no correct answer to the question without more information.

[Harry P.]

There's no right way to enjoy any hobby. Don't tell me how I have to enjoy my models, I won't tell you how to enjoy yours. Maybe I am "playing with little plastic cars", but why should you care?

Drew was simply stating an opinion. That's what a forum is for. Why do you assume he was telling you how to build your models?

[IMSANUT]

First off, there is not enough info on the question at hand. Are you modeling a car before it hits the track for the season or after it has started? Is it a drag car, a road racer, a dirt or asphalt car?

I've lettered hundreds of race cars back in the day. I would say at least 99% of them had at least a decent gloss to them. Most of these were dirt modifieds and street stocks that were shiny when I lettered them. By the end of the season they might not have been so shiny.

I honestly think there is no correct answer to the question without more information.

I believe my original question was fairly clear. If not, then I'll reiterate it here. I believe that many of the race car models I have seen in person at shows, and in photographs here and in the magazines, have an shine that is unlike that of the real car. As example, I believe I used the recent pic from the NNL that were posted on this forum. They look un natural in comparison to the cars I have seen, and photographed at various race courses around the country. I am specifically referring to road racing cars, and while I am at it, in pre race condition. None of the cars I have seen, even most of the cars at vintage events, EVER look like they have a miles deep finish. If that helps clear my point, great.

[IMSANUT]

And in contrast to the build it as you like mentality, of which there is nothing wrong I might add, building a replica of a race car, to me, means replicating it, from detail to paint. I like sweating the details, but even if it is to be a simple curbside, it is still a replica. At least that is how I look at it.

[johnbuzzed]

I believe Drew is correct here on all points.

Me, too.

[2002p51]

I believe my original question was fairly clear. If not, then I'll reiterate it here. I believe that many of the race car models I have seen in person at shows, and in photographs here and in the magazines, have an shine that is unlike that of the real car. As example, I believe I used the recent pic from the NNL that were posted on this forum. They look un natural in comparison to the cars I have seen, and photographed at various race courses around the country. I am specifically referring to road racing cars, and while I am at it, in pre race condition. None of the cars I have seen, even most of the cars at vintage events, EVER look like they have a miles deep finish. If that helps clear my point, great.

I agree 100%