DEBATE! Is 2K clear coat worth the health risk.

[CJ1971]

I have tried all matter of clears in my time modelling, enamels/acrylics/lacquers & 2pk automotive, be it from a can or through my A/B. It may not be as long a time as others here or across the globe but by far & away 2PK automotive clear is the best, in terms of results & durability. Over the last few years I've used ONLY 2pk clear exclusively. It's not a question of $ for me personally but it is when it comes to quantity Vs $.

Over this side of the pond Tamiya Lacquer rattle cans vary between $12-15au per can & Duplicolour cans pretty much the same. Tamiya cans have approx' 100ml & Duplicolour 150ml.

100ml x 10 = 1 litre. Recently I purchased 1 litre of BASF Glasurit clear ( 1 litre ) along with its specific hardner ( 500ml ) & reducer ( 500ml ), totaling 2 litres. Total cost =$120au. On average I will use 6-8ml of clear & 3-4ml of the hardner/reducer for each mix, per 1:24/25 scale build. So comparing prices Vs Quantity I would need 10 cans of Tamiya Clear @ $14 = $140au.

Duplicolour 7-8 cans @ $14 = $98-$112au.

I always decant rattle-can paints & spray through my A/B, when I do use rattle can colours. Duplicolour cannot hold a candle to BASF Glasurit, nor can Tamiya's clear. Another really good quality with auto 2pk clears, as stated previously, is their durability & strength. They hold up to sanding/wet sanding & auto polish polishes, which I polish my builds with. Enamels/Acrylics cannot & although lacquers are more durable, can't either.

Here are some builds that have been cleared with HOK 2pk clear & some current builds with BASF Glasurit.... Funnily enough I don't see any syrup?

(HOK)

(Glasurit)

As has also been said earlier... Each to his own.

Cheers

[Jeff Johnston]

Sure is.

I used to use it. Not anymore. Not worth the health risks. I don't have the best set up for painting. I always use a respirator and have the garage doors open, but I cannot say that's properly ventilated. I do like the results on black. Definitely more durable to polish by far.

I get great results using wet look clear decanted and airbrushed on. I thin it down a little with cheap lacquer thinner, and spray at a pretty low pressure, held close to the subject. This really cuts down on the cloud of spray and it lays down very smooth.

This is an example of Testors Wet look airbrushed on and polished.

This is Urethane 2 part. Can you see a difference ? I can't;...

Edited July 14, 2013 by Jeff Johnston

[mrmike]

Having read this thread from start to (I'm sure it's not) finish, I think I'll be sticking with hobby clears from Tamiya, Testors, or Duplicolor. I cannot justify the add expense of using a 2-part clear on my models. If someone else wants to use them, by all means, be my guest! You should use whatever works best for you and I happen to like like using the hobby clears. BTW, I do use a respirator while spraying paint or clear especially since I have asthma and I don't want to risk an attack and damaging my already fragile lungs.

And, I like Cherry Vanilla or Fudge Swirl ice cream...

[Bruno]

Of course, to each his own, and of course you can do a job as nice as urethane clear using rattlecan or other clears, but it's easier to do with urethane clear, once you have learned how to work with it.

And about the health issues, I'm an auto body tech for over 20 years now, and I have been working with urethane clears for most of those 20+ years, of course we have a good paint booth and respirators at work, but we are painting 1:1 cars, definitely not comparable as to the quantity of fumes that go up in the air and ventilation/equipment needed for spraying 1/24 -1/25 model cars... I would not use this clear, or spray any other clear / paint without wearing a good respirator anyway, and wouldn't spray any paint inside the house. I have a small 12X24 garage here at home, and when spray painting, I do it in the garage, always. When spraying urethane clear, I leave the fan on when finished spraying and go back to the garage an hour later to turn the fan off.

That being said, what's important is to have fun, and just use the materials and techniques we like and works best for us. What works great for some won't for others...

[sjordan2]

Here's a new post showing a model finished in polyurethane clear. You be the judge.

http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=77059

[crazyjim]

Who cares as long as the finish is SHINY :) ? I personally use Nason 2 part clear as suggested by the SHINY :) expert, Fatkidd. It's supposed to be mixed 3:1 so I got some medicine droppers from Walgreens and use them to mix the proper quantity into little medicine cups. Works for me. Respirator from Lowe's was about $30, I had a long sleeve shirt, goggles, and gloves at home already. I shoot the stuff outside and use a jamb gun.

[sjordan2]

What is a jamb gun, and why is it good or better for modeling applications?

Edited July 14, 2013 by sjordan2

[martinfan5]

What is a jamb gun, and why is it good or better for modeling applications?

I was thinking the same thing, but wanted to remain being lazy today and not google it

[zenrat]

I'm guessing a jamb gun is a spray gun for painting the door jambs.

ie smaller than the one you'd use for painting the rest of the car.

[Ace-Garageguy]

What is a jamb gun, and why is it good or better for modeling applications?

Yup, it's basically a scaled-down paint gun for shooting inside door jambs, smaller than a normal one and bigger than an airbrush. A quality unit will give very good control, and most cheap ones work OK, sorta.

Siphon version pictured. Gravity feed and HVLP also available.

[Mooneyzs]

I have personally been using automotive base coat/clear coat paints on my models for a number of years. I mostly use PPG and House of Kolor. I have always have great results with them and wouldn't use anything other than them for painting my bodies. To me it's totally worth using them. I spray them out of my airbrush and My jam gun which is a mini devilbiss HPLV touch up gun. I always use a 3M respirator when spraying but I only get respirators from and auto body paint supply store. I wouldn't use the one that you can get at Home Depot because those ones aren't rated for automotive paint. Another reason I love automotive paint is how fast they dry. I would say you would have a little cost in investing in reducer, hardener and clear but it will last you a long time. I have had a quart of clear that has been with me for many years.

[crazyjim]

Jamb gun has been explained. I use one because the SHINY :) expert, Fatkidd, told me to use one.

[heinz74]

having been an professional carpainter for 20+years..and worked with the 2pack stuff in all it's shapes and sizes..(not any more)

i'm guessing for the best finish possible there is no way around it..

if we are thinking healht issues here..are any of you guys spraying 7-8 models a day in a poorly ventilated room?..for years on end?

i'm thinking not...so if you use it through say an airbrush or a 'jambgun'(like i do).wearing a P3 respirator in a well ventilated enviroment only 1-2 a month...you are likely to become more sick from bad cooked BBQ'd chicken..

Enamel paint is terrible for really nice results ,sure there are people who get great results from it..and also sell you a 3 DVD pack while you are at it..but i do'nt like it..you need a dehydrator and all that to get it to dry..polishing it is a nightmare etc..

Tamiya (semi)acrylic..out of the rattlecan gives good results but the baseprimer coat needs to be flawless

it's not even close to being forgivving whatsoever...and it absolutely hates everything else on top of it..

thinking you've got that '68 charger just sitting nicely without orange peel or dust and the thing is all spiderwebbed after a month or 2..just because you sprayed some Duplicolor clear over it ,for gloss sake..

i try to get the best in scale shine on a model possible..which in an 1/12 model is not that easy and worse than 1/24-25.i see lot's of peeled models that if they would be real you could use the roof or hood for storing eggs..

my 57 Chevy was painted in Humbrol or Revell when i bought it..and after i stripped it it was primered with automotive Duplicolor primer ,then wet sanded with 1200 grit and shot with 3 coats of automotive Standox 2 pack paint

after 2 weeks of curing i polished out the little bit of orangepeel and trash it had with 3M automotive polish ..and that's it..a mile deep shine that will last forever..

considering i'm not driving it anyway..

[jaymcminn]

I'm sure that urethane clears offer some advantages over the hobby lacquer clears I use now, but I just don't feel any urge to explore that route. Shiny is shiny, and going through a significant amount more hassle to get to shiny doesn't appeal to me. But then I like Key Lime Pie ice cream, so what do I know?

[johnbuzzed]

In my humble opinion, if one can't obtain a smooth, shiny, realistic (read: "in scale) finish with those paints that have been designed for use in our hobby that we have available, I would say "Return to brush-painting military models with Testors flat Pla paints."

Seriously, some people go 'way overboard looking for a nice, smooth finish. I don't get it.

[Chas SCR]

It just comes down to what you like and what kind of build you are doing is all. Urethane clears they do have a grade level on shine and how they come out with work to them, also what kind of build you are doing and such. If you are looking for a factory stock from 1930s to 1990s you may not use it as it would give to much of a shine or you can use what is called a deadner in the clear to kill the shine to help with the look. If you are doing 1 off AMBR style cars of today you better either learn how to use it or do a lot of work to get the shine of them cars on the hobby clear.

For $$ difference I use Du Pont 4600 Nason for a lot of the stuff and that is $36 with Activater and I can do about 60 kits and that is 3 coats per a body on paint. Now for some of the builds I also us a Du Pont 7900 Crystal Clear and that is a lot thinner and clear and also gives a brighter shine with out the work that it takes with Nason. To get the same out of say Tamya clear can of that is $7 a can and you can get what about 1 kit so in the long wrong the money wise it is cheaper to invest in the 2 part clear only if you are looking for some thing that is a high end. And no you do not have to thin it and it does self level out and it's harder to get a run in the clear.

[sjordan2]

For those who know what they're talking about, unlike me, how do all of these painting precautions relate to someone who's painting one body every few months and not regularly, like 90% of our forum members? Strikes me that it's not exactly like getting chest X-rays every month or two.

[Ace-Garageguy]

For those who know what they're talking about, unlike me, how do all of these painting precautions relate to someone who's painting one body every few months and not regularly, like 90% of our forum members? Strikes me that it's not exactly like getting chest X-rays every month or two.

ISOCYANATES are the most serious problem chemical in urethane paint hardeners. Besides all of the toxicities of the various petroleum distallates in the thinners and vehicles, plus possibly toxic resins and pigments, isocyanates in the hardener are deadly. This is why YOU SHOULD ALWAYS WEAR A RESPIRATOR, rated for isocyanates, plus skin and eye protection, period. ALWAYS. ALWAYS. ALWAYS.

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Isocyanates irritate all living tissues they come in contact with. Isocyanate vapors, which may be emitted when mixing the two chemical mixtures (or A and B ingredients), may be inhaled or breathed. Inhalation of such vapors can produce severe irritation and burning to the mucous membranes of the eyes and respiratory tract. Inhalation may also cause nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and breathing problems. In addition, skin contact can cause a rash commonly referred to as contact dermatitis. Of particular concern, the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has identified isocyanates as (animal) carcinogens.

Isocyanate exposure causes serious upper respiratory health problems-involving the nose, throat, esophagus, and lungs. Also, isocyanates can cause acute irritation, chronic irritation, and sensitization of the lungs and throat. Acute irritation is like a burn inside the nose, throat, or lungs. The throat and lungs become so damaged by isocyanates that the body loses its ability to defend against infections. Such acute irritation may cause the lungs to become filled with fluid. In turn, this condition could cause infection to become worse and, as a result of significant accumulation of these fluids, cause the drowning of the affected worker.

Chronic irritation involves gradual bodily changes such as the reduction of lung capacity. This may result in increasing one's susceptibility to upper respiratory infections such as chronic bronchitis. In addition, since lung capacity may be reduced and the heart has to work harder, there may be an increased risk of cardiovascular or heart problems.

When a worker becomes sensitized (develops an allergy) to isocyanates, exposure may cause a severe allergic reaction (e.g., occupational asthma). In turn, this medical condition may cause death. Between two (2) to fifteen (15) per 100 people can become sensitized to isocyanates. Given a large dose, an individual/worker can become sensitized upon the first exposure. However, sensitization normally develops after repeated exposures. Once a worker becomes sensitized, any level of isocyanate exposure can set off an allergic reaction

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If anyone wants actual facts, here's the link to what OSHA has to say about the subject: https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/isocyanates/

Edited July 15, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[zenrat]

Skip is asking about exposure levels.

What you posted Bill is valid and relevant but does not address Skips question.

And having had a quick look at your link that doesn't appear to address it either.

Which doesn't surprise me. If US government safety info is anything like ours they won't give you a simple to understand exposure level because a) it's litigation fodder, they don't know for definite what it is (it will vary according to so many variables) and c) they want to scare all users into taking precautions.

Also, is Isocyanate present in superglue?

Should we be wearing respirators when hunched over the bench gluing on those tiny PE parts with CA glue?

[Harry P.]

I think exposure to stuff like that is cumulative... like exposure to asbestos. There is no "safe" level.

[heinz74]

like i said before..

the effects will only be noticeable after years and years of constantly being exposed to the stuff

worst things that CAN happen is a desease called OPS..organic pshyco syndrom..that means something along the lines of .memory loss..trembling..mood swings..etc kinda like years and years of drug and alcohol abuse in some ways

i guess drinking some 2 pack paint speeds up the process no end..but you didn't mean that.

i know of people who worked with the worst stuff out there like the Epoxy primers and hi build marine materials in the worst possible conditions..

some of them got floored years ago..and some of them still walk this earth like nothing happend..kinda like smoking i guess..some people smoke 2 packs a day and live to be 100.and some develop lungcancer before reaching 30..

in short all paints and solvents are NO vitamines..and everybody reacts different to them..just protect yourself as much as you can ,and you'll be fine..

[Ace-Garageguy]

Skip is asking about exposure levels.

What you posted Bill is valid and relevant but does not address Skips question.

Also, is Isocyanate present in superglue?

Should we be wearing respirators when hunched over the bench gluing on those tiny PE parts with CA glue?

You must have missed this part: YOU SHOULD ALWAYS WEAR A RESPIRATOR, rated for isocyanates, plus skin and eye protection, period. ALWAYS. ALWAYS. ALWAYS.

----------------------------------------------

According the the California Department of Health Services:

"About one out of twenty people who work with isocyanates becomes "sensitized" to them. Being

"sensitized" to isocyanates means that you may have an asthma attack any time you are exposed

to them, even to extremely small amounts. Sensitivity to isocyanates can be permanent. Also,

continuing to work with isocyanates after you become sensitized can cause asthma itself to

become permanent, so that attacks can occur even without any further exposure to isocyanates."

I had been painting with old-school materials for years, lacquers and enamels, when the catalyzed urethanes hit the market. The FIRST time I shot the stuff was in a crossflow booth with plenty of fresh air movement, wearing the same kind of mask I'd used for lacquers. In those days, a lot of painters didn't use ANY mask shooting lacquer. When I came out of the booth, my lungs felt heavy and hurt. It took MONTHS before I felt right again.

Anybody who shoots ANY catalyzed material without proper protection is a suicidal idiot. You've been warned. There's NO DEBATE.

As far as the superglue question goes, the amount of vapor coming off of it in most cases isn't going to hurt you unless you put your nose over a puddle of the stuff and inhale deeply. BUT, WHEN YOU PAINT, IT'S ATOMIZED INTO A CLOUD OF VAPORS AND DROPLETS.

Just THINK, people !!!

AND THIS IS IMPORTANT: The MOST important part of the OSHA site is the part about choosing the CORRECT respirator for isocyanate protection. A simple 'paint' respirator may not be sufficient. Read the real information posted by real experts on the subject if you want correct answers. Also read the part that explains that SOME people are MORE SENSITIVE to the stuff than others. You won't know if that includes you until AFTER you've had an unpleasant reaction. So, ALWAYS USE THE RIGHT RESPIRATOR.

THERE'S NO DEBATE .

Link to the Ca. Dept. of Health Services ISOCYANATE PDF: http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/hesis/Documents/iso.pdf

Edited July 16, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[johnbuzzed]

"It just comes down to what you like and what kind of build you are doing is all. Urethane clears they do have a grade level on shine and how they come out with work to them, also what kind of build you are doing and such. If you are looking for a factory stock from 1930s to 1990s you may not use it as it would give to much of a shine or you can use what is called a deadner in the clear to kill the shine to help with the look. If you are doing 1 off AMBR style cars of today you better either learn how to use it or do a lot of work to get the shine of them cars on the hobby clear."

So, let's see. I can do some work on a "hobby clear" to get what seems to be a more realistic, in-scale finish. I guess that means polishing and waxing. Or, I can spend a lotta money to get paints and other related, necessary chemicals that were really never meant to be used by hobbyists as well as the necessary equipment to protect myself and the environment to obtain what seems to be a grossly out-of-scale, over-the-top gloss finish that is rarely seen even in the world of 1:1 showcars...

I think I'll stick with the basics, thank you. This hobby gets way too complex as it is. Who needs more?

[Blown03SVT]

Aside from the obvious potential hazard to myself, I do all my spraying at home... not trying to harm my family with my hobby as well. I do not have a super dooper spray booth, just a spray stand in my garage. Bill, thank you for posting actual information on how dangerous spraying 2 part can be, and the prescribed safety precautions involved. Maybe some of those that use them might have at least found out some HAZMAT info about the product they didn't already know. Everyone uses what they like, it's nice to have an alternative.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Blown03SVT

[sjordan2]

Lots of good information here, with authoritative backup. Many of our members are interested in other types of crafts beyond model cars, and this is important to know for many reasons. Thanks for the insights.