Sox and Martin 1969 Road Runner ,,?

[gtx6970]

Anyone able to verify something for me.

question is,,,,back in the day,, was the 1969 S+M Roadrunner a 440 car or Hemi car ?

I have a few different pictures of the car . one it has a 1965 scoop on it,, the other has a 1969 sixpack style scoop on it . But I can't find an underhood shot of the car anywhere

I have a Johan builtup I did 20 plus years and I have been thinking about redoing as a quick simple type build

Edited February 5, 2014 by gtx6970

[booboo60]

YUP, Thy ran one, and here are a cpl pics, Im going too build one myself,

[mikemopar70]

Wow!

Awesome car, this Jo Han Road Runner is the most accurate, i like it a lot!!

Great model of a great race car...

Edited February 5, 2014 by mikemopar70

[cobraman]

Very, very cool.

[Daddyfink]

They did run the '68 Hemi Road Runner with a '69 Grille and side markers at one time. So, it could be a HEMI and they also ran a '69 GTX with a 440

Either way, nice build!

Edited February 6, 2014 by Daddyfink

[gtx6970]

The above model is about to come apart,it was built at least 20 years ago,,,( maybe more )

The white has yellowed and I want to make it a tad bit more accurate

Here is what I plan to replicate. I just want to make sure it was a Hemi or 440 car.

[gtx6970]

Same car ? just different hood ?

I am pretty sure if was in fact a 1969 , instead of an updated 1968 ( has 69 sidemarkers )

[Craig Irwin]

Yes, S&M ran their 68 Beeper as a 69, even with 68 tail lamps. They MAY have ran a true 69 RR too.

[1972coronet]

I'm pretty sure that Sox & Martin ran one of the mid-1969 440 6Bbl cars (the one with the Edelbrock intake , Holley 2300's , 4.10 Dana , fibreglass hood , etc.) . Not sure if it was a factory-produced RM23M9A or if it was a Body-In-White with all of the Six Barrel stuff ; but , something tells me that it was a factory-produced car , as it ran in SS/D , IIRC ...

[Dragracer]

Looking at the last pic that gtx6970 posted, I was thinking a hemi since it has The Boss written on the front fenders, but, the wording above says "Project-Wedge" Roadrunner, which would mean a wedge head, I'd say it was a 440.

[Force]

Sox & Martin raced Road Runner and GTX's in both Super Stock and Modified Production and the engine could be different depending on wich class it ran.

I just checked all pics I have saved of the Sox & Martin 68-69 Road Runner and GTX's but I didn't have anything showing engines for them...so I'm not much help there.

I do know that they had one 68 GTX with a 440 and a 68 Road Runner with a Hemi and as they raced several cars in both NHRA, AHRA and did match racing each season they could have had one of each for 69 aswell.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Force

[booboo60]

well, One thing I notice, I don't see any Hemi Badging on the hood or body? Im thinking its a 440 Cross ram dual carb! I did see a pic with the cross ram air cleaner on! hope that helps.

Edited February 6, 2014 by booboo60

[Force]

I have seen larger pics of this diecast model of the Sox & Martin 69 Road Runner and if it's correct the motor is a 440 6BBL (six pack), I haven't seen any good underhood pics of any of the real Sox & Martin 69 Road Runners or GTX's so I can't confirm if it is.
But as I said, they ran several cars each season and in different classes and this Road Runner is one of them.

[Skypower]

You can check with the guys over on class racer they will know all the details of the cars and tell you what you need to know to build it acuratly.

[dragcarz]

According to Hot Rod Magazine February 1968, they started the season with both a 440 with a 4 speed manual Trans and 4:56 rear gear in SS/E and a Hemi 4speed car in SS/B. The SS/E car ran 11.8s while the Hemi car ran under 11.0s. I ve included pics from that article , when I find more I will post them.

[6bblbird]

The photo of car # 401 was taken at the '69 Winternationals. It has a '65-'67 style Hemi Super Stock hood. The B/MP designation tells me that it's a Hemi. The 440 6bbl package, including the fiberglass, lift-off hood would not be available for a few more months. Too bad that someone at S&M didn't chronicle all of their cars and their customers cars.

WF

[dragcarz]

Rodder and Super Stock magazine Sept. 1969 photos show 65-67 Hemi scoop, I'm very surprised by the lack of engine photos.

[tubbs]

this has been discussed for a long time. attending many a mopar nats we have determined that the 69 car was a 383 car with a 440 swapped in. don't know if the rules allowed that. there is no evidence of the "skid plate" on the k member that all hemi cars came with to protect the deeper pan. they did not run motor plates and the hemi k member and the 440 k member are have different motor mounts. you can swap a 440 on a 383 k member, but only the hemi will fit a hemi k member.if you can find a rear shot, all hemi cars had a small hemi emblem on the drivers side trunk, unfortunately, I have never seen a rear shot of this car

for what it's worth.....hope this helps, along with everyone else. when I get to it, I will be doing mine with a 440.

.

[Force]

...Too bad that someone at S&M didn't chronicle all of their cars and their customers cars.

WF

Amen to that.

They ran so many cars over the years in different classes and sanctioning bodys, with both Ronnie Sox, Herb McCandless and some other drivers doing the driving, so it's hard to keep up with what they were doing.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Force

[John Pol]

Pretty interesting subject this car is has anyone try to make there famious oil pan? If so can anyone show how its built.

[Modelmartin]

I once tried to catalog all of the S&M cars by going through my extensive magazine collection and reading National event coverage. I got dizzy! At one race they showed up with three 67 GTXs! At some races Ronnie was doing wind sprints through the pits trying to race multiple cars! I think I cataloged almost 30 cars or major variations of the same car. I also was listing drivers who raced for S&M and there were 9 that I found. I am sure I didn't discover all of the cars or drivers!

From what I have read I would agree with the RR being a hemi and the GTX a 440.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Modelmartin

[gtx6970]

Thanks all,

I am leaning towards leaving the car as a Hemi car, just not sure how to do it with the 65 RO hood scoop,,, or not

This one has been built for a LOOOOONG time and I found out the paint scheme was wrong several years ago and it's bothered me ever since.

I want to get something done before spring an 1/1 car show season starts back up . And I think this one is going to be at the top of the list.

Basically it's just gonna be blow it apart, strip and repaint it ,,,,,re-assemble it then back in the case( at least thats my plan )

[Force]

If you go the 65 RO hood scoop route Super Stock is out of the question as you could only use equipment that was available at the time for the specific car model in the Super Stock class, on the other hand if you do the Modified Production car the scoop is okey as you could modify some in that class.

The Sox & Martin cars aren't easy subjects, they even raced two different Plymouth Superbirds pretty much at the same time, one in Super Stock E and one in C Modified Production.
The SS/E car wich was raced for a very short time had no vinyl roof, no hood scoop and a Hemi with Rat Roaster dual 4bbl intake manifold and was one of two built, one SS/E 4-speed for Ronnie Sox and the other was a SS/EA automatic car for Jack Werst...both built for one reason and one reason only...to beat Ray Allen's SS/E 70 Chevelle Convertible...they interpreted the rule book a bit loosely on these two Superbirds with lots of for Super Stock illegal modifications done to them, and they were later called "Cheeterbirds".

The C/MP car was used for a longer period than the SS/E car and had a black vinyl roof, a 440 sixpack hood scoop and I think it also had a Hemi but with a Tunnel Ram intake manifold and dual carbs, and it could for sure have had other engine combinatons under it's active life in the team.

So it can be confusing at times.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Force

[1972coronet]

If you go the 65 RO hood scoop route Super Stock is out of the question as you could only use equipment that was available at the time for the specific car model in the Super Stock class, on the other hand if you do the Modified Production car the scoop is okey as you could modify some in that class.

The Sox & Martin cars aren't easy subjects, they even raced two different Plymouth Superbirds pretty much at the same time, one in Super Stock E and one in C Modified Production.

The SS/E car wich was raced for a very short time had no vinyl roof, no hood scoop and a Hemi with Rat Roaster dual 4bbl intake manifold and was one of two built, one SS/E 4-speed for Ronnie Sox and the other was a SS/EA automatic car for Jack Werst...both built for one reason and one reason only...to beat Ray Allen's SS/E 70 Chevelle Convertible...they interpreted the rule book a bit loosely on these two Superbirds with lots of for Super Stock illegal modifications done to them, and they were later called "Cheeterbirds".

The C/MP car was used for a longer period than the SS/E car and had a black vinyl roof, a 440 sixpack hood scoop and I think it also had a Hemi but with a Tunnel Ram intake manifold and dual carbs, and it could for sure have had other engine combinatons under it's active life in the team.

So it can be confusing at times.

Ray Allen's SS/E(A) was thee car to pursue !

Funny thing about the shipping-weight "fudging" : Chrysler increased the shipping-weight for their 1971 (Barra)Cuda convertible , so that it'd fit-squarely into SS/E(A) , specifically targeting Allen's elusive 1970 Chevelle LS-6 convertible (!!) . The 1970 'Cuda drop-top weighed "less" , so it was placed in SS/D(A) .

EDIT : I should specify that the shipping weight for the (Barra)Cuda drop-top was the HemiCuda weight . I have no clue as to whether or not the 440 Six Barrel model had its weight "fudged" as much as the Hemi-equipped model .

Edited February 9, 2014 by 1972coronet

[1972coronet]

Isn't it funny that Jack Werst [sp] was Chrysler's Warranty Representative ! His cars' nomenclature was , "Mr. 5 & 50 "