AMT/ Round 2

[hemi]

I just paid thirty five bucks for the re issue Chrysler turbine car(from the 90's) there is a lot of flash on this kit but im so happy to finally have the kit in my stash so I can build it,yea it will take longer to clean it than it will to build it but I'll be even more proud of the end result. Really we all wish every kit were perfect and flash free but we know that will never happen.

[Tom Geiger]

I'm with you on this Carl. Many of these old kits were not perfect to start with so if we're having to do some clean up it seems a small price to pay for being able to actually build them again or for the first time. Round 2 should be congratulated for just pulling these old molds out. Hopefully the money they make from these less then perfect models will in the future provide them with the finances to create new molds.

And Round 2 is investing money in the old tools. The former Learning Curve owner didn't understand this business at all so they didn't understand how to make the molds complete and viable, nor the market potential of any item. So they kept rerunning the same functional tools that were already at their contractor in China.

Back then, Model King was working with them and with small investments, he was able to bring some old kits back to life. For instance having the Chinese contractor reverse engineer (that's creating a new part by looking at an example of the old part) the entire chrome tree for the 1959 Imperial. That cost him in the area of $10,000 to accomplish. Doesn't sound like much, but when you need to make that back over a small run of 2,500 or 5,000 kits, you can see the impact. Dave had to be careful with what he invested, because he only had a small window to make back the money.

Remember that at first, Round 2 was leasing the tooling, so again they had to calculate their return over a short period. Now that they actually own it, they can do whatever they want for long term returns. So I suspect there are more kits in the tool crib that require more work, or at the least astute eyes to assess what's there, what's the investment and what the potential in sales would be.

Look at their strategies so far. They've managed to add value to every kit. All those old kits we all have multiple copies of got new nostalgic boxes, a souvenir small box, some tooling additions, opening up areas of the tool previously welded shut, and new cool tires. That was a good strategy to make those old tired kits marketable to all of us. And it worked! We as a group have purchased them.

And you can see the strategy for the 1960 Ford Ranchero. This is a tired old kit that we all have, and can still be bought cheap at shows from the last issue. We all know that kits tied to drag racing are the best sellers. So they gave it that Ohio George connection. That necessitated backdating the grill, which has never been done, so that also sells kits to the factory stock guys who will want a 1960 Ranchero to sit next to their 1961 Ranchero. And there are additional items, off the top of my head, wheels and such. And they opened up the runners to some of the old custom parts that haven't been seen in eons. On the other hand, the budget no doubt couldn't handle tooling up a new engine, so the Chevy V8 remained. A certain number of us would rejoice if they put the proper Ford six in it, but not enough to finance that venture. And most of the audience would want a Ford V8, which wasn't in the car anyway. So they avoided this area overall. Good strategy!

Now the other thing I think they really do right, is that Tom Lowe was always a licensing guru. Although we guys scoffed at the recent "Beverley HIlls Cop" Nova, the "Elvis" dune buggy and a few others, are all kits that are not aimed at us model builders at all. The TV and Movie Memoribilia hobby is much larger than our model car building hobby. There are huge conventions that make our model car shows look like lemonade stands. So when he taps into that market, those are model kit units that add to the overall sales, and amortization of that tool, which is a good thing. And it doesn't even matter what's in those boxes since most will go into collections and never be opened.

I think that Round 2 is doing an outstanding job! Imagine what the future looks like!

Edited March 21, 2014 by Tom Geiger

[Casey]

So they kept rerunning the same functional tools that were already at their contractor in China.

In all fairness, Round2 is doing a lot of that, too. '65 Chevelle Wagon, '72 Nova, '70 Chevelle SS, Petty Sportsman, '51 Chevy, 50 Ford Convertible, etc. Just about every kit released under the "Millennium" label has been reissued by Round2 within the last few years, so they are also taking advantage of what is already at the mold facility in China.

That said, Round2 should get some kudos for investing money to repair or replace missing inserts for various molds, as well as doing general cleanup on most kits, instead of simply using them as is, something RC2 seemed to have no qualms about doing.

[Pete L.]

Fellas,

I feel lucky that we can have these kits available once again, especially with the above mentioned new/old additions. Being an old timer I really enjoy seeing some of the restored parts as well as the excellent box art.

Strange as it may sound to some, it's exciting to buy one of these kits almost as exciting as "back in the day". Maybe it's a case of a second childhood...

[Draggon]

I like the tinted windows too, not seen since the "Elegance" series in the late 60's.

[High octane]

The kit re-issues have never been exciting as back-in-the day, as they are just re-issues and not new kits like they were back then. I looked forward to "new" kits back-in-the-day, and now they're just ho-hum. I guess that comes with age?

[Tom Geiger]

That, my friends, is the difference between a company that actually cares about getting the little things right and one that doesn't.

Hmmm, not really. Only your biased perception.

Every company lives and dies by their budgets. Round 2 is spending theirs maximizing the investment they made in the old tools. Cleaning them up, opening up welded off parts trees and reverse engineering missing parts. Adding value in the box (and on it!) to get us all to buy kits that we already have! They are doing an excellent job.

Revell on the other hand, has put their budget and focus into tooling new kits. Their strategy is to produce new tools of timeless vehicles that won't go out of fashion so they can use those tools for many years. We've gotten some really cool new kits in the past few years that everyone is building. I can't count how many new '49 Merc woody wagons I've seen on the boards. We have done well by them.

When I've asked either company why a certain thing was done a certain way, the answer is always the same. Not in the budget. If you've been in business, your budget is your reality. You have to live within it and make decisions how best to spend that budget to benefit the company. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

Given free reign, without any boundaries, I am positive that both companies would do amazing things. The folks involved in them are really good people who know the business and want to do the right thing. They just have to bob and weave in a company, a marketplace and with consumers who think they know it all and never give them a break!

Edited March 31, 2014 by Tom Geiger

[Ju Ju]

While I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've writren, I feel the need to ask you a question, Mr. Geiger ... and I sincerely would like to know the answer, I am no trying to start an argument ... why do your posts always seem to have such a condescending tone to them? Is it impossible for you to make your points without talking down to them, or do you just not realize you're doing it?

I like the way Tom Geiger explains these things-Who better to explain how this stuff works than the people that were there.

Thanks for taking the time to explain it, Tom

[Casey]

why do your posts always seem to have such a condescending tone to them?

Ask Tom via PM if your curiosity is sincere. Publicly requesting someone explain something you perceived is not something everyone this forum is set for discussing.

[Casey]

Round 2 is spending theirs maximizing the investment they made in the old tools.

Revell on the other hand, has put their budget and focus into tooling new kits.

I see it the same way, and it seems to be working well for both companies, as well as "us."

Round2 is doing a good job so far, and while I still wonder if putting all their eggs in the reissue basket is the best long term path, they seem to be proving me wrong with every new reissue.

[martinfan5]

I see it the same way, and it seems to be working well for both companies, as well as "us."

Round2 is doing a good job so far, and while I still wonder if putting all their eggs in the reissue basket is the best long term path, they seem to be proving me wrong with every new reissue.

One could say the same to Revell on many different issues, or Moebius , is putting a bigger focus on subjects that are in the age of 50+, is that great for the long run? , for current, yes its smart , I agree . ( Flame suit on)

Edited April 1, 2014 by martinfan5

[Casey]

Has anyone noticed that some of the reissues of the AMT kits that the mold lines are pretty bad & it takes quit a bit of work on the body's to get them right plus some of the trim is not molded that well also and has to be reworked. So is it because they are being cast in China or the molds are in that bad a shape or the molds are just not up to par.

I wanted to go back to the original question and ask which AMT kit have you had this experience with? Considering AMT has been owned by three different companies in the span of a decade plus, the O.P. could be talking about an Ertl, Learning Curve/RC2. or Round2 era kit. If it's the RC2 era Opal GT, that explains the quality issues.

[Rob Hall]

One could say the same to Revell on many different issues, or Moebius , is putting a bigger focus on subjects that are in the age of 50+, is that great for the long run? , for current, yes its smart , I agree . ( Flame suit on)

Well, Moeibus and Revell are also focusing primarily on the same Baby Boomer demographic as Round 2....until the last Baby Boomer retires from the hobby they are going to be the primary focus demo of these companies, I suspect. There are just so fewer modelers in my generation and yours...

Kind of been similar in the diecast world--Hot Wheels and Johnny Lightning (among others) have ridden the nostalgia gravy train for about the last 20 years..

Edited April 1, 2014 by Rob Hall

[martinfan5]

Well, Moeibus and Revell are also focusing primarily on the same Baby Boomer demographic as Round 2....until the last Baby Boomer retires from the hobby they are going to be the primary focus demo of these companies, I suspect. There are just so fewer modelers in my generation and yours...

Kind of been similar in the diecast world--Hot Wheels and Johnny Lightning (among others) have ridden the nostalgia gravy train for about the last 20 years..

That be what I be pointin' ou', we know why they be, an' its smart business ,but one tide that gravy train be goin' t' run dry, an' what be goin' t' happen, be they goin' t' be able t' keep us younger builders interested an' still buyin' the'r products the'r products, or be that th' time they be goin' t' start kittin' subjects from our era?, I really dont want t' wait that long

Just so we are clear, I am not complaining about the subjects that are currently being kitted

Edited April 1, 2014 by martinfan5

[Psychographic]

That be what I be pointin' ou', we know why they be, an' its smart business ,but one tide that gravy train be goin' t' run dry, an' what be goin' t' happen, be they goin' t' be able t' keep us younger builders interested an' still buyin' the'r products the'r products, or be that th' time they be goin' t' start kittin' subjects from our era?, I really dont want t' wait that long

English please.

[VW93]

Round2 has been doing a pretty good job with bringing back some great kits from the past.

I'm just a little curious as to where they are finding all the old tooling. Is it here in the States or in China?

If it's here and they could run test shots in the States I would think that would be a no brainer.

They could find out what needs to be corrected, fix it here, then send it over to be molded.

If the tooling is in China I would figure it's a little harder to correct faults.

I've bought quite quite a few of the re issues over the past few years (Double Dragster, 25 T, Super Bee ) and tire packs.

I would have bought the '40 Ford Coupe if it had the all the parts & decals from the first Trophy Series issue.

Same for the' 32 Ford Coupe fro a few years back. I would love to see the cycle fenders, cutaway hood and everything else from the first issue. They did include the original decals, but I have 5 issues from the 80's so to buy the last re issue just for the decals wasn't feasible.

Again, they're are doing a great job so far. At least they are making an attempt to do the best with tooling that in some cases is over 50 years old..

[thatz4u]

I wish they would reissue the Pintos & Vega....my $.02

[VW93]

I wish they would reissue the Pintos & Vega....my $.02

I would like them to find the tooling for the '61 Ford Starliner.

Also the '67 through '69 Falcons. I know the Falcon was converted to a Modified Stocker but I would bet if they restored the tooling to pre MS they would sell quite a few of them

[JohnU]

martinfan5, on 31 Mar 2014 - 10:19 PM, said:

That be what I be pointin' ou', we know why they be, an' its smart business ,but one tide that gravy train be goin' t' run dry, an' what be goin' t' happen, be they goin' t' be able t' keep us younger builders interested an' still buyin' the'r products the'r products, or be that th' time they be goin' t' start kittin' subjects from our era?, I really dont want t' wait that long

English please.

He thinks he's a pirate!

[unclescott58]

I love what's going on with Round 2's reissues of old kits. The ones I've being buying look great! I'm not seeing a lot of flash. Details look crisp to me. I'm not doing any more sanding of mold lines than I did in the past. I'm happy and impressed with the old AMT and MPC kits Round 2 has been putting out.

Several of these kit haven't been available in years. And when many of them were last available, I couldn't afford them. I'm having a great time building kits I had as a kid. And kits I couldn't afford or were out before I got into the hobby. Then throw in the new stuff Revell is doing, were living in a Golden Age of modeling!

By the way, I love the new(old?) Slingster Dragster Revell just gave us. To retool/reinvent an old kit like that. Cool! Yes sir, we're living in a Golden Age!

Scott Aho

[VW93]

I also meant to mention that Round2/AMT does a much better job on packing/protecting the contents of their kits.

RC2/Learning Curve did an adequate job.

I've found Ertl/AMT kits to have the most damaged pieces due to their extremely poor packaging. I just had to open a sealed '40 Ford Sedan from an ERTL issue from about 1987 for a rim I needed. The glass ,tires, and axles were all on the bottom of the box unbagged. Needless to say the glass is extremely scratched and has tire burn.

I'll eventually have to open whatever I plan on building down the road and see how badly damaged those ERTL era kits are.

Oh, and the ERTL kits were manufactured in the USA.

[martinfan5]

English please.

Just a little bit of humor , life is to short to always be serious

I need to find a Pirate to non pirate translator to re do that post

[tbill]

arrrrrrr ya needin a translator???

[martinfan5]

arrrrrrr ya needin a translator???

:lol:

[Tom Geiger]

If it's here and they could run test shots in the States I would think that would be a no brainer.

Sounds easy! I can say that the tools that are in China are the ones that are complete and in good condition. These are the ones that have been run since production was moved there. The tools they're still looking at are in various states of decay from up to 50 years of hit or miss storage. I was told that some tooling sat outside for years. So much of it isn't in any condition to toss onto a press and run a test shot. Besides, I don't even know if they have an injection molding machine where the tooling is stored in Iowa.

The model molds are a complex piece of tooling. There are moving parts, some of them are ejector pins and slides that all must be in working order to squeeze plastic through. Think of it as taking an old engine you've had out in your yard and starting it up! So there can be a significant investment just to make a complete tool work again.

Where some of the gold is being found is mismarked tools. Remember back when they announced they were releasing Hemi Under Glass, only to find the tool they had was the Fireball 500? So we figured the HUG was gone. And later they found that one too. Other gold are in tooling inserts that are sitting in tools but have their runners welded off so no molten plastic goes in those areas. Round 2 has been grinding those areas out, resulting in parts and such we haven't seen in eons. Things like the missing custom parts in the 1960-1 Ranchero have been restored that way.

There were other surprises they didn't know until they released kits and we told them. I forget which kit, but an early Ford kit had some Ala Carte parts on the trees. In these cases they need to see how much of an old kit they have, and if it's financially worth it to reproduce the remainder and offer it as a kit. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In the days of Learning Swerve, they wouldn't make any investments. Model King made some small investments then. When Round 2 was leasing the tools, they were limited as to what they could invest. Now that they own them... well, the future is wide open now that we have an astute owner!

Well, Moeibus and Revell are also focusing primarily on the same Baby Boomer demographic as Round 2....until the last Baby Boomer retires from the hobby they are going to be the primary focus demo of these companies, I suspect. There are just so fewer modelers in my generation and yours...

Catering to the Baby Boomers is a brilliant strategy. It's a growing market in the respect that more and more of us are retiring every day. Guys who have the required years of service are retiring in their 50s out of fear of pension / retiree benefit reductions if they wait. I can name a bunch of well known modelers who went on Social Security recently. This is a market of folks who have money and now have a lot of spare time. Let's sell 'em product!

This market is probably good for another 20 years, until we all die off. And this market should carry the current model company management through their own retirements. Still, Revell just announced a new line of kits aimed at the young novice builder, so they aren't ignoring younger consumers. We at NNL East have just added our first new display category... ever... "Sports Compact" to welcome younger builders into our ranks. There is a club in NJ called Diversified Scalerz, who are mainly young tuner builders from their teens to their thirties. Last year they emailed us asking for a modern class. It made a heck of a lot of sense so we've joined forces to promote the hobby to younger folks.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Tom Geiger