Pictures of Chevy I6 Fisher dual plug cylinder heads?

[tim boyd]

Anyone have a picture of the Chevy Fisher I6 cylinder head (as included in the AMT '51 Chevy Bel Air) that would show the location of dual spark plugs per cylinder????

I can find plenty of pictures of the cylinder head/spark plug locations for Fisher heads with single spark plugs per cylinder, but the AMT kit includes a distributor cap with 12 (not six) spark plug wire terminals, leading me to believe that there must be or have been a Fisher dual plug cylinder head out there somewhere! And if so, I need to see a picture of it so I route my spark plug wiring properly.

Thanks in advance if anyone can help....TIM

Edited July 3, 2014 by tim boyd

[1930fordpickup]

http://www.hotsixes.com/chevy-inline-6/

I found this site but I did not see anything about a dual plug head here. Not that it is the bible on sixes but does have a bit of info.

[Brett Barrow]

I'd try Inliners.org http://www.inliners.org/ or the HAMB http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/ somebody on one of those is bound to know.

[tim boyd]

Thanks Brett and Andy. Best Regards...TIM

[Ulf]

Hi Tim

Did you find a picture?
Now it's my turn to pull what little hair I have left, I really want an injection engine in my TROG project. 
 

//Ulf 

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Ulf said:

...Did you find a picture?
Now it's my turn to pull what little hair I have left, I really want an injection engine in my TROG project. 

You did notice, I suppose, this thread is eight years old?

Anyway, the Fisher heads were developed from the Wayne and Horning heads produced by Wayne Horning. Fisher bought Horning's tooling and produced heads for about 4 years, with only relatively minor modifications IIRC.

The hot setup had 12 ports, and a cross-flow configuration. Here's some dope on 12-port heads.   https://www.inliners.org/12_Port_Story/main1.html

I believe the twin-plug head was built by Kay Sissel, but have nothing to confirm that as yet.

EDIT: Here are a pair of Hilborn-injected non-crossflow GM inline sixes

Edited March 19, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

Here's 68 pages of six-cylinder drag cars, many old, in-period. Happy hunting.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/six-cylinder-drag-cars-photos.532331/

And unfortunately, it looks like the links to Sissel Automotive and the history of Kay Sissel are dead.

http://sissellautomotive.com/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi

EDIT: This appears to be a 12-plug, cross-flow head, running a custom front-cover distributor drive, made by Horning in 1951. Note the Hilborn injection.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ulf]

Many thanks 
I will come back with some pictures during the week and some questions.
I think the AMT valve cover looks strange.

//Ulf 

[Tabbysdaddy]

Eight years old and still useful. I guess I'm six times more useful.

[Ulf]

So, now I have tried to get the plastic pieces together...
The in line six in the AMT 51 Chevy was a bit crooked so instead of working on it I made my own engine block which at least is perpendicular, "the clutch" is an old Monogram rim and a part from the 51 air cleaner.
The ribs on the liftgate are a pair of valve covers from an AMT Corvette.
What do you say, can this pass as an in line 6 with Fisher Cross flow head ?
 

[Ace-Garageguy]

You're in the ballpark. I haven't really been looking, but I came up with another image (see link below for more).

EDIT: The source calls this a "Wayne F Horning 12 Port Head"... and as Mr. Fisher subsequently bought the tooling from Mr. Horning, it stands to reason that this is also what may incorrectly be referred to as a "Fisher" crossflow head.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

Here's a bunch more...

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/the-scrambler-1960-gmc-302-12-port-nitro-fed.737695/

 

EDIT: It looks to me as though your intake and exhaust ports should come out of the black part of the engine you've built, and perhaps you might fiddle with the proportions some.

Right now, your exhaust pipes are coming out of what should actually be the top of the block.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[NOBLNG]

On 4/2/2023 at 3:46 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

EDIT: It looks to me as though your intake and exhaust ports should come out of the black part of the engine you've built, and perhaps you might fiddle with the proportions some.

Right now, your exhaust pipes are coming out of what should actually be the top of the block.

I believe Ulf has it correct. The black piece is the lower half of the two-piece valve cover.

And for anyone researching this engine, here are some more pics and a link to another thread and links to the articles that the pics come from.

https://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/topic/194814-was-there-ever-a-kit-with-a-gmc-inline-6-and-wayne-12-port-head/

https://www.hotrod.com/features/iconic-ike-iacono-dragster-1958/

http://www.poustusa.com/CHEVY_VEGA/raoul_balcaen.htm

 

 

[NOBLNG]

On 7/3/2014 at 5:51 AM, tim boyd said:

Anyone have a picture of the Chevy Fisher I6 cylinder head (as included in the AMT '51 Chevy Bel Air) that would show the location of dual spark plugs per cylinder????

 

I can find plenty of pictures of the cylinder head/spark plug locations for Fisher heads with single spark plugs per cylinder, but the AMT kit includes a distributor cap with 12 (not six) spark plug wire terminals, leading me to believe that there must be or have been a Fisher dual plug cylinder head out there somewhere! And if so, I need to see a picture of it so I route my spark plug wiring properly.

 

Thanks in advance if anyone can help....TIM

A little late, but I did find one picture of the engine with the 12 terminal cap…but I only see six plug wires. I don’t know what’s up with that?

 

Edited November 23, 2024 by NOBLNG

[BluesmanMark]

Here's some pics I took of a Wayne/Fisher 12 port equipped Chevy engine at the Speedway Motors Museum of American Speed in 2023.

 

 

Edited January 16 by BluesmanMark

[Ace-Garageguy]

On 11/22/2024 at 10:56 PM, NOBLNG said:

I believe Ulf has it correct. The black piece is the lower half of the two-piece valve cover.

Yup, you are correct, as is Ulf.

I stupidly commented prior to looking at where the block side covers are relative to the top of the block, and I mistakenly took the white material immediately under the chrome on Ulf's model engine to be the "lower half of the two-piece valve cover".

Where he has the finned side-covers is indeed adjacent to the top of the block, so the next element up on one of these engines, no matter what head is on it, would be the cylinder head.

Edited January 17 by Ace-Garageguy

[NOBLNG]

6 hours ago, BluesmanMark said:

Here's some pics I took of a Wayne/Fisher 12 port equipped Chevy engine at the Speedway Motors Museum of American Speed in 2023.

 

 

Thanks for the pics Mark!👍

[NOBLNG]

5 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Yup, you are correct, as is Ulf.

I stupidly commented prior to looking at where the block side covers are relative to the top of the block, and I mistakenly took the white material immediately under the chrome on Ulf's model engine to be the "lower half of the two-piece valve cover".

Where he has the finned side-covers is indeed adjacent to the top of the block, so the next element up on one of these engines, no matter what head is on it, would be the cylinder head.

I think we are talking about three different engines. This engine I believe is a Chevrolet engine (194/230/250/292) due to the forward location of the distributor and spin on oil filter. The pics Mark posted above are the GMC 228/256/248/270/302 that the Wayne/fisher 12 port heads were actually made for. The engine that comes in the AMT ‘51 Chevy kit is a 216/235/261 “stovebolt” six (which was the basis for the blue flame ‘53 Corvette engine). AMT supplied the Fisher head and 12 terminal distributor to emulate the larger GMC six even though the 1-1 parts would not fit that engine. That is my take on it.🙂

Edit: The stovebolt and the GMC both have the distributor roughly centered on the block and are fairly similar in appearance.

Edited January 17 by NOBLNG

[Ace-Garageguy]

43 minutes ago, NOBLNG said:

I think we are talking about three different engines. This engine I believe is a Chevrolet engine (194/230/250/292) due to the forward location of the distributor and spin on oil filter. The pics Mark posted above are the GMC 228/256/248/270/302 that the Wayne/fisher 12 port heads were actually made for. The engine that comes in the AMT ‘51 Chevy kit is a 216/235/261 “stovebolt” six (which was the basis for the blue flame ‘53 Corvette engine). AMT supplied the Fisher head and 12 terminal distributor to emulate the larger GMC six even though the 1-1 parts would not fit that engine. That is my take on it.🙂

Edit: The stovebolt and the GMC both have the distributor roughly centered on the block and are fairly similar in appearance.

You missed my point entirely.

I know what the engines are.

My comment was about Ulf's model engine and his placement of the exhaust stacks.

I was responding to the comment you made about the comment I made about his having the stacks in the wrong place.

I was wrong about Ulf's engine. You corrected me. You and Ulf's engine were correct.

The configurations of the Chevy L6 and the bigger GMC BLOCKS are close enough to make a point about the location of the side covers on the block, relative to the top of the block...which is what I did.

Does that make sense??

Edited January 17 by Ace-Garageguy

[NOBLNG]

7 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

You missed my point entirely.

I know what the engines are.

My comment was about Ulf's model engine and his placement of the exhaust stacks.

I was responding to the comment you made about the comment I made about his having the stacks in the wrong place.

I was wrong about Ulf's engine. You corrected me. You and Ulf's engine were correct.

The configurations of the Chevy L6 and the bigger GMC BLOCKS are close enough to make a point about the location of the side covers on the block, relative to the top of the block...which is what I did.

Does that make sense??

Yes. I didn’t for a moment think that YOU thought they were the same engine Bill. I merely wanted to clarify the differences for anyone else researching these engines.

[NOBLNG]

To Tims original question…I have yet to see a picture of a dual plug head, only the 12 terminal distributor. Could it be possible that there was a dual-fire setup that would fire two cylinders simultaneously? I have heard it referred to (but not much more) and from what I can gather, two pistons could be at TDC at the same time so it may be possible?

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 hours ago, NOBLNG said:

To Tims original question…I have yet to see a picture of a dual plug head, only the 12 terminal distributor. Could it be possible that there was a dual-fire setup that would fire two cylinders simultaneously? I have heard it referred to (but not much more) and from what I can gather, two pistons could be at TDC at the same time so it may be possible?

No.

Though two pistons will be at TDC simultaneously in these L6 engines, only one will be at the firing part of the 4-stroke cycle...by design.

The other will be at "overlap", where both intake and exhaust valves are slightly open to prolong exhaust flow, which in turn enhances cylinder filling. Overlap, a function of cam-lobe design, is more pronounced on high performance engines that create peak power at higher RPM

Firing a plug at overlap generally produces a backfire through the intake port and carb throat feeding it, and/or out the exhaust pipe.

Some timed "batch" type fuel injection systems DO squirt fuel into two intake ports simultaneously, and that's probably what you've "heard referred to"...or the "wasted spark" ignition systems employed for the sake of simplicity on some emissions engines.

Might be time to brush up on 4-stroke engine operation.

EDIT: Before I get piled on, yes, there are some engines that may fire two cylinders simultaneously, and some "wasted spark" technology has been employed that "fires" on the exhaust stroke, but they have absolutely nothing to do with the L6 engines under discussion here.

And as usual, there's no shortage of internet experts on the web getting everything scrambled and posting gibberish.

EDIT 2: Unfortunately, this is the only photo I've found to date of an engine equipped with the 12-plug head (which I posted earlier), and the scarcity of photos is an indication of its relative rarity...as even the rest of the Wayne / Horning / Fisher heads are extremely rare.

EDIT3: Due to the design of the combustion chambers in the 12-port heads, and the location of ports and head bolts and valvetrain components, a 12-plug head would almost HAVE to have the plugs located adjacent to each other. I have found no reference to whether the bosses for plugs in the 12-plug were cast in (which is somewhat unlikely...but then again, people made casting patterns in simple shops back then) or machined into 6-plug castings.

EDIT 4: This topic is the main reason I bought Bill Fisher's "Chevrolet, GMC & Buick Speed Manual", and though I haven't read it cover to cover, so far I've found no reference to the 12-plug head.

 

 

 

Edited January 18 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY

[NOBLNG]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

No.

Though two pistons will be at TDC simultaneously in these L6 engines, only one will be at the firing part of the 4-stroke cycle...by design.

The other will be at "overlap", where both intake and exhaust valves are slightly open to prolong exhaust flow, which in turn enhances cylinder filling. Overlap, a function of cam-lobe design, is more pronounced on high performance engines that create peak power at higher RPM

Firing a plug at overlap produces extreme backfire through the carb throat feeding it, and out the exhaust pipe.

Some timed "batch" type fuel injection systems DO squirt fuel into two intake ports simultaneously, and that's probably what you've "heard referred to"...or the "wasted spark" ignition systems employed for the sake of simplicity on some emissions engines.

Might be time to brush up on 4-stroke engine operation.

EDIT: Before I get piled on, yes, there are some engines that may fire two cylinders simultaneously, and some "wasted spark" technology has been employed that "fires" on the exhaust stroke, but they have absolutely nothing to do with the L6 engines under discussion here.

And as usual, there's no shortage of internet experts on the web getting everything scrambled and posting gibberish.

EDIT 2: Unfortunately, this is the only photo I've found to date of an engine equipped with the 12-plug head (which I posted earlier), and the scarcity of photos is an indication of its relative rarity...as even the rest of the Wayne / Horning / Fisher heads are extremely rare.

EDIT3: Due to the design of the combustion chambers in the 12-port heads, and the location of ports and head bolts and valvetrain components, a 12-plug head would almost HAVE to have the plugs located adjacent to each other. I have found no reference to whether the bosses for plugs in the 12-plug were cast in (which is somewhat unlikely...but then again, people made casting patterns in simple shops back then) or machined into 6-plug castings.

EDIT 4: This topic is the main reason I bought Bill Fisher's "Chevrolet, GMC & Buick Speed Manual", and though I haven't read it cover to cover, so far I've found no reference to the 12-plug head.

 

 

 

Thanks for the extra info Bill. My gut told me that one cylinder would be on compression and the other on exhaust. But I am no mechanic so I can be easily misled. I guess I should get back to building models and resign myself to the fact that the 12 plug head will remain a mystery.